Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[Second_in_pie]

Did I not just say that?

So you're expecting stops at East Mall, Sherway, Dixie, Stanfield, Cawthra, Central Parkway and Burnhamthrope at the least? Unless you're going to put in all those stops, a subway really is completely redundant.

I really want you to look at this for a second. What is there between MCC and Sherway that needs subway? If you want something that connects MCC to the rest of the city, the Milton line is really what you want. It would provide a fast connection to Sherway, Etobicoke, and Downtown. It'd be cheaper than subway, with no downsides compared to subway. Regional Rail is already there anyways, and is going to be getting better even if a subway is there.

What exactly is it about the Milton line that you don't like? Is it just the fact that subway has prestige that regional rail doesn't? You do realize that the Milton line would be basically be the exact same as a subway, right?

TTC for Torontonians. Except in special exceptions such as York Region. Right.
Somehow a subway to York Region is win-win, whereas a subway to Mississauga is what, lose-lose? Improving convenience is somehow bad?
Because there's nothing at VCC it's easier to build there? That's a reason to expand the subway there? Are you fucking kidding me?

It's not TTC for Torontonians. Well it's not subway for Torontonians at least. The subway's going up Yonge because there's density along the entire route. NYCC-RHC with over 50k people in between. For Vaughan, VCC is only 2km away from Steeles, where it would make sense to end the subway because York U ends there. But with VCC being built less than 2 km north, which will be a high density centre housing thousands of people and thousands of jobs, well... you do the math.

Also, the Richmond Hill line just isn't the same calibre of convenience as the Milton Line. The Richmond Hill line bypasses NYCC, Yonge and Eglinton, as well as Bloor-Yonge, while the Milton line goes from MCC straight to the end of the B-D. The Barrie line really isn't anywhere close to VCC and would have to be rerouted over 10 km, probably mostly underground. Rerouting the Milton Line straight under MCC would be less than 6km, and depending on the route only 2 km underground and 4 above ground. Putting the B-D to MCC would also be 8 km from Sherway.

 

[hbl33]

I fully agree with Second in pie regarding to this. SOS is becoming too far fetched if you think expansion to MCC can be done magically without convincing the public and transit boards to approve it.

Did I not just say that?

Not the way I've read or understood it. OK. next.

Subways in general are pretty absent from TTC or Metrolinx plans.

That goes one blame toward Giambrone and Metrolinx goons.

TTC for Torontonians. Except in special exceptions such as York Region. Right.
Somehow a subway to York Region is win-win, whereas a subway to Mississauga is what, lose-lose? Improving convenience is somehow bad?
Because there's nothing at VCC it's easier to build there? That's a reason to expand the subway there? Are you fucking kidding me?

You think I'm against subway to MCC just because it is not going to be approved by these short minded politicos in short term? And you really believe that I'm ignorant about the prospect in VCC, thinking it goes to nowhere? What the fuck? I admit, VCC got opportunities. Vaughan has more business opportunities than Mississauga right now. Mississauga does deserve subway if it wasn't shelved by TTC. Its the lack of general public support and governments that do not concur, and therefore no move is being made. I'm just realist here, is there anything fucking wrong with this? And look at the costs, the engineering hurdles, NIMBYísm and all that bullshit. What is saddening me, however, is that neither sides (pro-transit advocates vs short-minded-dregs running & dwelling in the city) collaborate in such development like these. Makes it feel like this forum is subway-Nazi, anti-NIMBYs exclusive club.

Apart from this, I will respect the rest of your quote, but I will have to continue see it to believe it.

 

[Dan416]

So you're expecting stops at East Mall, Sherway, Dixie, Stanfield, Cawthra, Central Parkway and Burnhamthrope at the least? Unless you're going to put in all those stops, a subway really is completely redundant.

Um, why WOULDN'T you those stops in? :-/

I really want you to look at this for a second. What is there between MCC and Sherway that needs subway? If you want something that connects MCC to the rest of the city, the Milton line is really what you want. It would provide a fast connection to Sherway, Etobicoke, and Downtown. It'd be cheaper than subway, with no downsides compared to subway. Regional Rail is already there anyways, and is going to be getting better even if a subway is there.

What's between downtown and Kipling that needs a subway?

Milton doesn't serve MCC, and it sure doesn't "connect it with the rest of the city". No downsides compared to the subway? How about being inaccessible and distant stop-spacing? I'm sorry but you really don't know anything about Mississauga do you. And FYI, there is a downside to everything.

Regional rail? If what we have on Milton now is regional rail, then we don't have much to look forward to do we.

What exactly is it about the Milton line that you don't like? Is it just the fact that subway has prestige that regional rail doesn't? You do realize that the Milton line would be basically be the exact same as a subway, right?

Exactly the same? Um, how? Like how, at all? They're completely different routes, serve completely different markets, and there's very little cross between TTC/MT and GO riders currently.

Since getting a car, I pretty much ONLY take GO transit, and sometimes TTC. I love GO because it's easy to take a train or bus straight downtown. But that's pretty much all it's good for. To take it anywhere else is pretty much cost-prohibitive. I wouldn't take it if my destination was anywhere in Western Toronto, that's for sure. If was going to go to Kipling, I would just drive.

It's not TTC for Torontonians. Well it's not subway for Torontonians at least. The subway's going up Yonge because there's density along the entire route. NYCC-RHC with over 50k people in between. For Vaughan, VCC is only 2km away from Steeles, where it would make sense to end the subway because York U ends there. But with VCC being built less than 2 km north, which will be a high density centre housing thousands of people and thousands of jobs, well... you do the math.

Also, the Richmond Hill line just isn't the same calibre of convenience as the Milton Line. The Richmond Hill line bypasses NYCC, Yonge and Eglinton, as well as Bloor-Yonge, while the Milton line goes from MCC straight to the end of the B-D. The Barrie line really isn't anywhere close to VCC and would have to be rerouted over 10 km, probably mostly underground. Rerouting the Milton Line straight under MCC would be less than 6km, and depending on the route only 2 km underground and 4 above ground. Putting the B-D to MCC would also be 8 km from Sherway.

You're advocating for a subway to VCC despite having to reply on future density and jobs, yet there's the density and the jobs in MCC already, and you won't accept subway. Riiiight.

Just saying that Milton goes through MCC is just wrong. Unless Cooksville became part of MCC when I wasn't looking.

 

[hbl33]

Um, why WOULDN'T you those stops in? :-/

What's between downtown and Kipling that needs a subway?

Milton doesn't serve MCC, and it sure doesn't "connect it with the rest of the city". No downsides compared to the subway? How about being inaccessible and distant stop-spacing? I'm sorry but you really don't know anything about Mississauga do you. And FYI, there is a downside to everything.

Regional rail? If what we have on Milton now is regional rail, then we don't have much to look forward to do we.

Exactly the same? Um, how? Like how, at all? They're completely different routes, serve completely different markets, and there's very little cross between TTC/MT and GO riders currently.

Since getting a car, I pretty much ONLY take GO transit, and sometimes TTC. I love GO because it's easy to take a train or bus straight downtown. But that's pretty much all it's good for. To take it anywhere else is pretty much cost-prohibitive. I wouldn't take it if my destination was anywhere in Western Toronto, that's for sure. If was going to go to Kipling, I would just drive.

I don't get it why "SUBWAYS MUST REACH DOWNTOWNS" viewpoint: I guess TTC only looks at short-term opportunities. Once they've realized they made the the hell of a mess (MCC as it is now) in Richmond Hill and Vaughan Corporate Centre, they try something to cover up.

Subway along Dundas to Cooksville GO is pretty much identical to Milton Line with more stops. I think GO should offer an alternative to a proposed subway to MCC that is not as complicated.

You're advocating for a subway to VCC despite having to reply on future density and jobs, yet there's the density and the jobs in MCC already, and you won't accept subway. Riiiight.

Just saying that Milton goes through MCC is just wrong. Unless Cooksville became part of MCC when I wasn't looking.

Then why not create competition between TTC as a new contender for regional transit, against venerable GO Transit?

Currently, GO Transit's role is to feed Toronto with commuters from 905, while TTC serves internal destinations to commuters (whether 905 or 416) within T.O.

 

[Dan416]

I don't get it why "SUBWAYS MUST REACH DOWNTOWNS" viewpoint: I guess TTC only looks at short-term opportunities. Once they've realized they made the the hell of a mess (MCC as it is now) in Richmond Hill and Vaughan Corporate Centre, they try something to cover up.

Subway along Dundas to Cooksville GO is pretty much identical to Milton Line with more stops. I think GO should offer an alternative to a proposed subway to MCC that is not as complicated.

Subway along Dundas is not identical in any way, shape or form to the Milton line. I'm sorry but that's like saying the GO train along Lakeshore makes the B-D line redundant. Or a DRL for that matter. It's preposterous.
GO isn't in the business of creating alternatives to the subway. Subway and GO are complementary services and don't "compete" with one another. Every city that has subway pretty much has regional rail as well, and they somehow coexist. Yet whenever Mississauga comes up, they apparently cannot coexist.

Currently, GO Transit's role is to feed Toronto with commuters from 905, while TTC serves internal destinations to commuters (whether 905 or 416) within T.O.

That's an outdated view of GO transit if I ever heard one.

 

[Dan416]

One more to ask regarding to your reply to one of my quotes:



IF SOS's aim is just to bring the "neglected" subway system, why not focus its own internal network or its current project instead of bringing back & forth MCC extension? With plans to York Region and add Mississauga to the plan, this is pretty much overlapping the core GO transit coverage. Although they are spaced apart from each other, its potential shift from GO to TTC is nothing more than competition.

I'm sorry I don't really follow what you're saying here. We are focusing on the network. The York Region plans are already on the table, that has nothing to do with SOS. How the subway is overlapping GO, I don't understand. GO emanates all the way to Hamilton and Barrie and soon Peterborough too. Subway will never compete with those areas. Subway will never even reach Oakville for that matter. As for subway reaching GO's core in York Region, how many times does it have to be iterated that they serve different riders? People have destinations all along Yonge. Same way as people have destinations all along Bloor. A lot of people in York will want to reach Union quickly. Same with Mississauga. They take GO.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Subway along Dundas is not identical in any way, shape or form to the Milton line. I'm sorry but that's like saying the GO train along Lakeshore makes the B-D line redundant. Or a DRL for that matter. It's preposterous.
GO isn't in the business of creating alternatives to the subway. Subway and GO are complementary services and don't "compete" with one another. Every city that has subway pretty much has regional rail as well, and they somehow coexist. Yet whenever Mississauga comes up, they apparently cannot coexist.

Okay, no. Stop right there. If you can't accept that a Dundas subway and the Milton line would run on basically the exact same route then your opinion can't be taken seriously. If your only complaint is that the Milton line doesn't hit MCC, here's something that'll blow your mind; the B-D doesn't either. You're saying that people will be willing to build the B-D to MCC, but not the Milton Line? If that is what you're saying, take a few classes in logic, or perhaps go back to elementary school. If they want to put the Milton line to MCC, it's the exact same as putting the B-D there, albeit without a complete duplication of service.

 

[Dan416]

Also, farebox competition might take place between TTC's extension to MCC against GO's Milton Line. How is it efficient for MCC commuters to get to Union within short time, or reduced fares?

Either one:
- Pay 60 cent to transfer to Cooksville GO, wait for train to Union(45 minutes min.; 4.80+0.60=5.40 one way; 10.80 round trip)
- Pay TTC flat fare (3.00 as of 2010; +1 hour trip!)

TTC subway to Union doesn't even stand against bus service from Square One to Union ($4.80 direct to Union; min. 45 mins, usually less)

SO TTC compromises trip length for fares.

So his assumption is that all MCC commuters expect solely to take TTC to Kipling, which is really non-sense. In fact, based on several observations during morning rush hour to Union, I noticed that very few actually hopped from Cooksville and actually got off at Kipling. In fact, very few @ Kipling station.

I'm sorry but I have a really hard time understanding your posts. So much so I can't even figure out which side you're fighting on.

 

[hbl33]

I'm sorry but I have a really hard time understanding your posts. So much so I can't even figure out which side you're fighting on.

Obviously you don't know how time-ineffective is to travel from MCC to Union solely by subway.

I am posting about the predicted length of the trip from MCC to Union station should the Bloor/Danforth line extends to MCC. Estimating the stops along the stations (Square One, Burnhamthorpe, Central Parkway, Cawthra, Stanfield, Dixie, Sherway, East Mall) in addition of the trip length from Kipling to Union Stations (that would be 40 minutes), it would take me at least more than an hour and 20 minutes from Square One to Union Station! I can save almost half of that time by just taking GO train at Cooksville Station and take up to 45 minutes maximum.

I am also adding the fact that TTC from Square One to Union takes longer than taking solely a bus from SQ1 to Union (estimated 1 hour 12 minutes vs. 45 minutes by bus).

I messed up when I was talking about the fares, which really had nothing to do with my argument.

 

[Dan416]

Obviously you don't know how time-ineffective is to travel from MCC to Union solely by subway.

I am posting about the predicted length of the trip from MCC to Union station should the Bloor/Danforth line extends to MCC. Estimating the stops along the stations (Square One, Burnhamthorpe, Central Parkway, Cawthra, Stanfield, Dixie, Sherway, East Mall) in addition of the trip length from Kipling to Union Stations (that would be 40 minutes), it would take me at least more than an hour and 20 minutes from Square One to Union Station! I can save almost half of that time by just taking GO train at Cooksville Station and take up to 45 minutes maximum.

I am also adding the fact that TTC from Square One to Union takes longer than taking solely a bus from SQ1 to Union (estimated 1 hour 12 minutes vs. 45 minutes by bus).

I messed up when I was talking about the fares, which really had nothing to do with my argument.

Why would anyone go from MCC to Union via subway? That makes no sense. Compare trips that actually make sense: like MCC to St. George.

Anyway if your argument held water, no one would be taking Bloor, Burnhamthorpe, Rathburn or Dundas to Islington, whereas Islington is MT's biggest terminal other than Square One.

 

[hbl33]

Why would anyone go from MCC to Union via subway? That makes no sense. Compare trips that actually make sense: like MCC to St. George.

Anyway if your argument held water, no one would be taking Bloor, Burnhamthorpe, Rathburn or Dundas to Islington, whereas Islington is MT's biggest terminal other than Square One.

Funny that you've mentioned St. George - one trip I made from MCC to St. George via Union, the trip took me about an hour - almost similar to my estimate trip length of TTC from MCC to St. George (although few minutes longer). Otherwise, I don't see any objections if MCC-Dundas West, MCC-Dufferin or MCC-Ossington.

One more question before getting back to topic: Isn't MT's terminus being moved from Islington to Kipling? If so, when?

 

[Fresh Start]

I fully agree with Second in pie regarding to this. SOS is becoming too far fetched if you think expansion to MCC can be done the rest of your quote, but I will have to continue see it to believe it.

Don't take it personally. He's just biased becuase that's where he lives. In all seriousness, I cannot think of a B-D extension to MCC that would not significantly overlap the Milton corridor. It's redundant, pointless, impractical. If Mississauga's downtown was at Dixie Road & Dundas then maybe it'd be a reasonable comparison to VCC, but not at that distance. The commuter-rail line is the best alternative Mississaugans got and it is far simpler to electrify the corridor and perhaps add in a stop where it crosses Dundas, than to pursue subways here. Were Cooksville Stn to be re-aligned and perhaps rebuilt underground then that changes the angle at which REX trains can penetrate the City Centre (via Confederation Pkwy). This also makes Erindale Stn defunct but riders of the 26 bus can quickly make back the distance from SQ1.

Of course, the best solution in my opinion is not to re-align the rail corridor. But just have riders transfer onto the Hurontario LRT, presumably underground through this built-up area, same as any rider is expected to transfer off the B-D line at Bloor-Yonge Stn to continue their travels into the downtown core. You cannot tell me that a below-grade LRT ROW along Hurontario, that provides a wider coverage area, is any worse than a B-D extension through the same area at a fraction of the cost. Dundas Street should sustain its locally spaced stops and in affect the all-day tag-team of 1/201 local/express services along the corridor are really efficient. I hate to see local stops replaced by 1.5 km apart subway stops. And if an all-day parallel bus service is still needed, it begs the question why build a subway here at all?

 

[Dan416]

Funny that you've mentioned St. George - one trip I made from MCC to St. George via Union, the trip took me about an hour - almost similar to my estimate trip length of TTC from MCC to St. George (although few minutes longer). Otherwise, I don't see any objections if MCC-Dundas West, MCC-Dufferin or MCC-Ossington.

One more question before getting back to topic: Isn't MT's terminus being moved from Islington to Kipling? If so, when?

The thing about getting downtown via GO is you have to wait for the bus. So if you miss it, you have to wait half an hour (if you're lucky) or more than an hour (yes, I sadly discovered there still are gaps of over an hour in Milton service to Erindale this summer). Buses along Burnhamthorpe and Dundas are far more frequent, as is the subway. And if the subway reached Square One, it'd be far faster than the buses serving the subway now.

As for Kipling, I thought that whole plan was on hold since the Islington redevelopment project with SNC Lavalin fell apart, but I could be wrong.

 

[Dan416]

Don't take it personally. He's just biased becuase that's where he lives. In all seriousness, I cannot think of a B-D extension to MCC that would not significantly overlap the Milton corridor. It's redundant, pointless, impractical. If Mississauga's downtown was at Dixie Road & Dundas then maybe it'd be a reasonable comparison to VCC, but not at that distance. The commuter-rail line is the best alternative Mississaugans got and it is far simpler to electrify the corridor and perhaps add in a stop where it crosses Dundas, than to pursue subways here. Were Cooksville Stn to be re-aligned and perhaps rebuilt underground then that changes the angle at which REX trains can penetrate the City Centre (via Confederation Pkwy). This also makes Erindale Stn defunct but riders of the 26 bus can quickly make back the distance from SQ1.

Of course, the best solution in my opinion is not to re-align the rail corridor. But just have riders transfer onto the Hurontario LRT, presumably underground through this built-up area, same as any rider is expected to transfer off the B-D line at Bloor-Yonge Stn to continue their travels into the downtown core. You cannot tell me that a below-grade LRT ROW along Hurontario, that provides a wider coverage area, is any worse than a B-D extension through the same area at a fraction of the cost. Dundas Street should sustain its locally spaced stops and in affect the all-day tag-team of 1/201 local/express services along the corridor are really efficient. I hate to see local stops replaced by 1.5 km apart subway stops. And if an all-day parallel bus service is still needed, it begs the question why build a subway here at all?

Everyone is biased based on where they live. To assume otherwise is just stupid. The only place a Bloor extension would overlap with GO is from Kipling to Dixie. Beyond that there's no reason for overlap since it would presumably follow Dundas the rest of the way. Or it might follow Bloor, which would be more direct. Regardless of alignment, and even if the subway and GO were side-by-side the entire time, they serve different markets and are completely different services. How people don't understand this baffles me. One doesn't replace one with the other. They coexist. Like in Madrid or any other place with regional rail.

Your idea of transferring at Dundas and Hurontario to the Hurontario LRT to reach MCC is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. SOS is fighting to remove the transfer to get to SCC, yet you want to institute one in Mississauga? No thanks.

I'm sorry but the Mississauga portion of the map just isn't up for debate. I'd rather kill SOS right now then take it off the plan. And if that sounds like a scorched earth policy, well yes, that's what it is.

 

[hbl33]

Anyway if your argument held water, no one would be taking Bloor, Burnhamthorpe, Rathburn or Dundas to Islington, whereas Islington is MT's biggest terminal other than Square One.

The thing about getting downtown via GO is you have to wait for the bus. So if you miss it, you have to wait half an hour (if you're lucky) or more than an hour (yes, I sadly discovered there still are gaps of over an hour in Milton service to Erindale this summer). Buses along Burnhamthorpe and Dundas are far more frequent, as is the subway. And if the subway reached Square One, it'd be far faster than the buses serving the subway now.

The instant access to West Toronto is good, but I doubt it comes without any expense of Mississauga.

As a result, wouldn't TTC cannibalize the bus ops east of Hurontario? Wouldn't slower bus services (Bloor, Burnhamthorpe, Dundas & Rathburn, and possibly Dixie & Queensway) to Islington, Sherway would be all threatened by TTC?
This proposal could turn these routes into TTC-dependent feeder services just like YRT rather than operating as an established system of its own, doesn't it?

And speaking of Hurontario LRT, wouldn't it lose its dominance once MCC extension is accomplished? You may think it might not take impact from subway, but it willl most likely so, because subway is so effective...

now onto dystopic case (grim outlook for TTC)...

What if the ridership doesn't turn out to be optimistic for several months?

Wouldn't it be called a flop? Or would Mississauga have to change its priority of intensification from existing SQ1 area to Dundas strip? Is it cost-effective?

How would McCallion, councillors and its city departments regard to this? Feasible in terms of cost? Or a money leech? Developing along Dundas Strip from Dixie to Cooksville would be the best damn thing since the sliced bread, but you really think Hazel would allow this? I'd bet McCallion would get heart attack should B+D does make it all the way to SQ1 (I think its because of her ego to establish "Downtown Mississauga" without even thinking about possible subway opportunities.)

Mississauga is quite different from York Region other than its status as suburb in terms of growth; Thornhill, VCC and Rich Hill all huddle closer to North York than MCC is ever closer to Islington Station. Between the gap is full of aged cookie-cutter homes, with a minor commercial establishments along Burnhamthorpe, Rathburn and Bloor St.

While Madrid case is quite comprehensible, I can't see the same way for Toronto's. TTC don't co-operate well with GO Transit so far (NO TRANSFER-FREE connection between TTC and GO), and until I see TTC/GO merger along with rest of GTA, it never ain't gonna happen.

I'd bet that none of these questions are ever came out of my own thought.

We need to keep this thread in topic, as the title stated.
Please reply in the thread "Subway to Mississauga: routing"