xtremesniper
Active Member
Those pictures are of the BRD route being built from Downsview to York U as an interim project until the subway extension finishes.
Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group
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Epi
Active Member
Wait a sec, you say I'm misrepresenting someone, and then you misrepresent me? As I have already clearly stated, I'd RATHER they built LRT than subway, but really I think bus is sufficient. Amazingly they already have buses there, which aren't all that busy to begin with and so keeping it the way it is costs... nothing. Or if they wanted bus lanes, it'd be the cost of... paint and maybe some signs. They could even add an extra lane onto the street if they wanted to be fancy, but even that would be FAR less than building a subway.
VCC doesn't NEED a subway to develop. Downtown Markham is making due with bus (aka VIVA) and it's already under construction.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Go back and have another look. You've explicitly stated that you think LRT is also not needed or warranted, yet it will still cost hundreds of millions of dollars. It's not cheaper than extending the subway another two stops, particularly since the only reason the Spadina extension is getting any funding at all is because the extension goes into Vaughan.
BMO
Senior Member
I think what everyone is forgetting is that it is already set that VIVA will have its own right of way on highway 7, the reason the extension is going all the way up to VCC is because VIVA doesn't want to continue wasting time by going down keele to York U, with the extension in place VIVA pruple can jsut continue going straight to Jane/highway 7 ad meet up with the subway, while this may be a little bit of an inconvenience to those going to Yor U because they need to make a transfer, it will dramatically improve the croos town speed of VIVA purple, not to mention that it is at the 407 extension stop, where the proposed 407 transitway is supposed to hook up.
So when people say that this extension isn't warranted because of current numbers, they are completely right, but the extension will help improve the connectivity and efficiency of York Region's transit dramatically which, IMOP, is why the two extra stops past steeles were put forward, and is why they are going to get built.
RedRocket191
Senior Member
Epi
Active Member
I see the confusion here. My original 1-liner a few pages back is stemming from previous (I think, not 100% sure it's been a long while) Steve Munro posts where he's talking about ridership on the new line vs. just building LRT. I think in an ideal world, if Vaughan is so serious about the VCC, then an LRT line up north, which connects as far north to Wonderland would be good. This would connect up to multiple transfers to industrial zones for workers, to one of the biggest malls in the GTA, and to one of the biggest car destinations and part-time job centers in the GTA (students working at wonderland and young visitors there would surely benefit). It would also intersect at the proposed location of the new Vaughan hospital.
Why would LRT be good? Well, it would be relatively cheap to extend LRT even further northwards later on. As well, anyone who wanted to transit up to Vaughan Mills/Wonderland/new hospital would have to change to a bus anyway, so they'd have an extra transfer anyway. It would be very expensive to move a subway any further north meanwhile, as it would be underground cut and cover or not.
The cost for a 8km long LRT line would be as much as a 2km long subway extension up north especially if capital costs were fitted with Transit City purchases (hard politically but possible), considering the stations would be a hell of a lot cheaper to build, and there would be no tunneling. LRT would also be more than enough in terms of capacity for any projected ridership into the far future.
I contrast this long-term (and I mean long term) goal with my personal belief that transit should be an evolutionary process. We should ramp up demand as it becomes necessary instead of spending a billion dollars to overbuild something that isn't necessary. That way, capacity is matched to demand, and that way previous resources are allocated to where they are needed most. And in that respect, I think with what is there now, and what will be there in the forseeable future (I'm talking about shovel ready concrete plans) the demand simply is not there and I do question the City of Vaughan's ability to create a real transit oriented urban core.
As to the answer of additional transfers and 'if VCC extension wasn't built, then York U extension would have been impossible!', I can only counter with the idea that since 1/2 the trains will be short turning anyway after York and an extra fare will likely be paid to get into York Region, it's already not that convenient anyway. Either you wait for every other train (or infrequent trains at the Hwy7/Jane terminal) or you walk up a flight of stairs to the next available LRT which isn't that big a deal.
As well, although I guess people here at UT don't really like his ideas, I do agree with Steve Munro that the entire extension is sort of a waste, and that the ENTIRE THING should have been LRT in the first place. So for that, I really don't see the merit of 'this allowed the rest of the line to be built' because I don't think the rest of the line should be built anyway, but that is an argument that I don't wish to get into as I don't think it'll ever get anywhere.
Anyway what I think is moot anyway, but since this is a forum of people who generally have no real power to change things anyway we're all just stating our opinion are we not? The money has been spent, and it WILL be built. I do agree that the extra connections with VIVA will be useful now that it has been mentioned, and if VCC is really well designed as a true urban core (and not a fake parking lot office park + random condos) this extension will serve it well. I honestly hope that this line proves me (and Steve) wrong. Perhaps one day it will be decided that building this line was a visionary and highly useful endeavor.
xtremesniper
Active Member
And that's the sad part of all this. We are all here, enthusiasts of transit, and they make it so hard for us to give our opinions in the planning stages. Why is everything in the transit world so locked in political reliance? It's why I was happy to hear that Metrolinx was no longer composed of political representatives.
I want to just be able to have YRT or TTC listen to us for a change. We have some good ideas and debates. Heck, we can save them a whole lot of money on consultants.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
You're still confused. All of the employment zones, Vaughan Mills, Wonderland, etc., will be served by the subway + bus routes. In the real world, people take buses and we don't need to build LRT to lure them to transit. They will take the subway extension to Hwy 7 and then take a bus to Wonderland or wherever else. It's just silly for you to slam the subway extension because there's nothing in the area and then extoll the virtues of the *same area* in support of LRT...and Vaughan can still build LRT on Jane north of Hwy 7, especially since there's nothing on Jane south of Hwy 7 in Vaughan, so there's no need for a continuous line along Jane paralleling the subway.
Epi
Active Member
Did you even read my post? I honestly don't think LRT is even necessary for that corridor for the foreseeable future. It's a far in the distance option if the ridership suggests it. I don't think subway should even be 'far in the future'. It's so far in the future that it's pure speculation whether it should be built at all compared to so many other worthy projects in the GTA that also need funding.
If you really believe that "In the real world, people take buses and we don't need to build LRT to lure them to transit." then we don't need subways either, buses can do the job.
Dan416
Senior Member
Sounds like a good enough reason as any to extend subways forever. Oakville Place is a pretty busy place you know, I think it should be just one bus ride away from the subway. Think about Oakville! How are rich people supposed to take the subway if it's not a 5 minute drive or walk away?
In all seriousness though, the reasoning behind the Vaughan extension is quite simply ridiculous and beyond the scope of logic, when you have much more pressing places that need subway first: e.g. SCC via Danforth or Sheppard, preferably both; MCC via Bloor or Dundas; RHC via Yonge. VCC ranks dead last.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Seriously, read your own posts. You lay out a case for LRT based on how many trip generators are up there, claim these same trip generators will have no effect on the subway extension which serves the same area, and then say LRT isn't needed, either.
Buses can only do so much, particularly when they get stuck in traffic and stop at red lights.
Epi
Active Member
Not only do I say that LRT won't be needed for decades, but the capacity of a subway is far, far, far higher than LRT. So yes, even if in a few decades a LRT is warranted, a subway will still NOT be.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
It is impossible for a subway to move its theoretical capacity at its terminus station - the same is true for any transit mode, of course. No matter what mode is chosen for any transit project, *your* tax dollars are going to pay for transit that is not and can not be at its theoretical capacity at its terminus point. Just like hospitals are not more successful when you have to wait 8 hours to see a doctor, transit is not more successful when overcrowding drives people to drive. That's just the way it is.
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Where do Eglinton, DRL and Queen figure in on that? Higher or lower than VCC? I'm curious.
marcus_a_j
Senior Member
The VCC extension is quite logical. Land use planning policies have been developed and are still being refined to build around the extension in an area that can be built at higher densities. Because of the amount of land that is currently undeveloped, there can be densities greater than what currently exists in MCC and SCC. There's a lot more growth potential around VCC than MCC and SCC for employment and residential uses.
What would be ridiculous is to have the subway stop at Steeles West and let the undeveloped land in VCC be turned into more big box stores and single-storey office buildings. That way more people can get into their cars and clog our roads even more. And since there will be no more land around Jane and Hwy 7, future office and employment growth can just continue to go up along Hwys 400 and 404, like the new Honda HQ north of Elgin Mills adjacent to the 404.