Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Is that really all the redevelopment they're planning?

Yes. There's an existing Office building (RBC) as well. And really 2 (so far) condo developments, with one consisting of 5 towers.

With all the hype I fear that this will just become a bedroom community with mostly residential developments.

 

[Adjei]

The VIVA station connecting to the subway looks pretty neat in the video.

 

[salsa]

Is that really all the redevelopment they're planning?

No they are planning a little Manhattan north of Toronto. Or at least that's what the "plan" is.[/PIE IN THE SKY]

 

[sixrings]

salsa said No they are planning a little Manhattan north of Toronto. Or at least that's what the "plan" is.[/PIE IN THE SKY]

about 10 years ago there was a half dozen condos in Mississauga city centre. Today there are dozens. Downtown Markham might be ahead of Vaughan as well. That being said I fully believe being on two highways and a subway line will expedite their downtown construction. The land is already zoned and will be easy to develop since its just removal of big box stores on large parking lots. In 30 years it might actually look like that video. Of course Toronto will grow as well but I think Vaughan very well might catch Mississauga

 

[salsa]

about 10 years ago there was a half dozen condos in Mississauga city centre. Today there are dozens. Downtown Markham might be ahead of Vaughan as well. That being said I fully believe being on two highways and a subway line will expedite their downtown construction. The land is already zoned and will be easy to develop since its just removal of big box stores on large parking lots. In 30 years it might actually look like that video. Of course Toronto will grow as well but I think Vaughan very well might catch Mississauga

I'm not disagreeing that there will be development. I just don't expect VMC to become the vibrant fantasy land that's portrayed in the video, or that this magnitude of development will realistically happen:

I would love to be proven wrong, but Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke Centre turned out nothing like what was promised. NYC is the only centre in the GTA that has been reasonably successful, and yet there hasn't been nearly enough office development. Employment is an essential part of creating a vibrant urban centre, but all they build are condos nowadays (which is also what Mississauga is doing).

About 10 years ago there was a half dozen condos in Mississauga city centre. Today there are dozens.

...but I think Vaughan very well might catch Mississauga

Vaughan is not gonna catch up to Canada's 6th largest city, and they are competing with Markham Centre, Richmond Hill Centre, and Langstaff Gateway (all of which are more grandiose than realistic). Yes, Mississauga Centre has seen a lot of development in recent years, but it's still an unpleasant urban environment. The roads are way too wide and fast, there is too much traffic, many existing building are anti-urban or meet the street poorly, there are not many people on the streets, lots of wind-swepped land remains undeveloped, and there is not much to do there other than Square One. However I will give them credit for Celebration Square and Sheridan campus. Vaughan on the other hand could have created their own Celebration Square, instead they chose to build their new city hall at Keele & Major Mackenzie. There are also plans to build a large hospital that will employ many people, but it will not be built in VMC. And as 44 North said, council is more interested in supporting unfettered sprawl than urban development.

 

[Tuscani01]

I'm not disagreeing that there will be development. I just don't expect VMC to become the vibrant fantasy land that's portrayed in the video, or that this magnitude of development will realistically happen:
View attachment 57116

Im sure people were saying that about Toronto back when it looked like this:

Source: City of Toronto

There were no office towers back then. They came later, on over a long period of time. Vaughan's City Centre will be more someday. It's inevitable. Maybe not in the next 30 years, but it will happen.

 

[salsa]

There were no office towers back then. They came later, on over a long period of time. Vaughan's City Centre will be more someday. It's inevitable. Maybe not in the next 30 years, but it will happen.

The same was said about Scarborough. As I said, I would like to be proven wrong but just because there's a plan doesn't mean it will ultimately be successful.

 

[sixrings]

I think the difference is that this isn't a Toronto suburb but a 905 suburb which is motivated to make it work. Toronto basically funnels everything downtown and tries to pretend like it put in effort at north York or scarborough. North York is not bad but you are right it isn't like the video. I think the benefit of them building from scratch is that they can make the street layout on a grid without too much distance between streets. North York is basically just whatever is on the immediate east or west of yonge street. It is more of a giant line than a grid. Having grown up in scarborough I have absolutely nothing nice to say about scarborough city centre.

 

[salsa]

I think the difference is that this isn't a Toronto suburb but a 905 suburb which is motivated to make it work. Toronto basically funnels everything downtown and tries to pretend like it put in effort at north York or scarborough. North York is not bad but you are right it isn't like the video. I think the benefit of them building from scratch is that they can make the street layout on a grid without too much distance between streets. North York is basically just whatever is on the immediate east or west of yonge street. It is more of a giant line than a grid. Having grown up in scarborough I have absolutely nothing nice to say about scarborough city centre.

You raise a good point which is that Vaughan is starting from scratch. They have a great opportunity to get things right, whereas Mississauga Centre for example has to work with a failed suburban design and build form that can never be fully repaired to modern urban standards. Even the location of MCC is a major flaw for not being built at a more transit friendly location such as Cooksville GO station (Hurontario & Dundas).

 

[44 North]

I think the difference is that this isn't a Toronto suburb but a 905 suburb which is motivated to make it work. Toronto basically funnels everything downtown and tries to pretend like it put in effort at north York or scarborough. North York is not bad but you are right it isn't like the video. I think the benefit of them building from scratch is that they can make the street layout on a grid without too much distance between streets. North York is basically just whatever is on the immediate east or west of yonge street. It is more of a giant line than a grid. Having grown up in scarborough I have absolutely nothing nice to say about scarborough city centre.

I see the opposite. Prior to the subway NYCC already had a preexisting tight grid network of streets to work from, not to mention a preexisting population that used transportation modes other than auto. Yes, it was "suburban". But not overly, and still a far cry from the housing stock seen in places like Vaughan.

VMC on the other hand has massive highway-like roads, no sidewalks, no preexisting homes, no pedestrians, extremely suburban-style businesses/retail... and all of it is surrounded by industrial land, expressways, and highways. Those aren't going anywhere, and IMO there's no comparison. Even if a nuclear bomb went of in NYCC, it'd still be more urban than 2050 VMC.

As for the point about the 905 wanting to 'make it work'. Maybe, but not necessarily. Places like Vaughan have ample whitebelt land to sprawl over for decades, then greenbelt (which they overwhelmingly support sprawling onto in the present - despite preventative legislation). And re: Toronto 'funneling everything downtown'... I dunno about that, either. All major transit infrastructure spending in the last half century has been for the former boroughs' benefit. Line 1 will soon be extended for its seventh time, all the while a Queen Subway/DRL still might not exist. The City's priority is 1/3 of a relief line, and Metrolinx is pushing tram-trains to run on the street downtown, and cheapened/unworkable surface subways.

 

[Adjei]

I see the opposite. Prior to the subway NYCC already had a preexisting tight grid network of streets to work from, not to mention a preexisting population that used transportation modes other than auto. Yes, it was "suburban". But not overly, and still a far cry from the housing stock seen in places like Vaughan.

VMC on the other hand has massive highway-like roads, no sidewalks, no preexisting homes, no pedestrians, extremely suburban-style businesses/retail... and all of it is surrounded by industrial land, expressways, and highways. Those aren't going anywhere, and IMO there's no comparison. Even if a nuclear bomb went of in NYCC, it'd still be more urban than 2050 VMC.

As for the point about the 905 wanting to 'make it work'. Maybe, but not necessarily. Places like Vaughan have ample whitebelt land to sprawl over for decades, then greenbelt (which they overwhelmingly support sprawling onto in the present - despite preventative legislation). And re: Toronto 'funneling everything downtown'... I dunno about that, either. All major transit infrastructure spending in the last half century has been for the former boroughs' benefit. Line 1 will soon be extended for its seventh time, all the while a Queen Subway/DRL still might not exist. The City's priority is 1/3 of a relief line, and Metrolinx is pushing tram-trains to run on the street downtown, and cheapened/unworkable surface subways.

What is your problem with Metrolinx? Who told you the city's priority is the relief line. The city is 100% behind SmartTrack. All the available funding is going towards SmartTrack. Look how much the Federal parties were dying to contribute to SmartTrack during the election. I'm sure they were told by the city that's the priority. The city's main priority is not the DRL. All those consultations are just to kept it on the radar a bit. They are doubling down on SmartTrack. Everything else is being pushed to the backburner. At least the province acknowledged the Relief Line in the budget. How much money is Toronto willing to contribute for the DRL. I mean they are willing to fund SmartTrack but we don't hear anything about the relief line. I wonder why you don't criticize them but are so adamant to blame Metrolinx/Ontario.

 

[sixrings]

im pretty sure ikea, home depot, walmart, and all those big box stores will gladly sell their land for cheaper land elsewhere. There is no benefit to big box stores being in a "city centre."

 

[Johnny Au]

I had to drive out that way over the summer to pick up a piece of furniture. It was my first time in that part of Toronto and was absolutely shocked to see a subway being built underground next to basically single-family homes. Not something you usually see around the world.

You are over half a century too late.

The TTC constructed a subway next to single-family homes back in the early 1950s!

 

[W. K. Lis]

When the Bloor-Danforth subway was extended west from Keele (now Line 2) in the 1960's, there were protests (now called NIMBYs) against high-rise buildings going up around the new High Park Subway Station.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Somewhat related, but the Town of Vaughan released a 3D model video of its area and which I hadn't seen posted before:

Vaughan's a city and has been for a long time.

salsa said No they are planning a little Manhattan north of Toronto. Or at least that's what the "plan" is.[/PIE IN THE SKY]
about 10 years ago there was a half dozen condos in Mississauga city centre. Today there are dozens. Downtown Markham might be ahead of Vaughan as well. That being said I fully believe being on two highways and a subway line will expedite their downtown construction. The land is already zoned and will be easy to develop since its just removal of big box stores on large parking lots. In 30 years it might actually look like that video. Of course Toronto will grow as well but I think Vaughan very well might catch Mississauga

And Mississauga doesn't have the high order transit earmarked for this area (i.e. BRT, subway and [eventually, hopefully] the Transitway).
It's also a mistake, repeated by several here, that the only development plans are around VMC. Vaughan has an intensification plan in place for Steeles and York U also has ambitious intensification plans, and lots of land to do it on.

Overall, the ongoing theme is clearly, "There's nothing there now. I can't imagine there ever will be."
Well, no one knows what the future holds but if you can't even imagine it, you're behind the curve of what's going on with planning in this region and this continent. As North44 points out, Vaughan council isn't exactly the most anti-sprawl council there, but even they know they have to make this happen. The planning regime in place in all these centres is far different and far more substantial than what Toronto put in place when it built the B/D subway line. Heck, VMC is already seeing more intensification than most Danforth stations.

I'm not disagreeing that there will be development. I just don't expect VMC to become the vibrant fantasy land that's portrayed in the video, or that this magnitude of development will realistically happen:
Vaughan is not gonna catch up to Canada's 6th largest city, and they are competing with Markham Centre, Richmond Hill Centre, and Langstaff Gateway (all of which are more grandiose than realistic).

I wonder how many people thought, in the 1970s or even 80s, that Mississauga would be the sixth biggest city in Canada?
Anyway, I'm not sure why Markham Centre, in particular, is not realistic. It seemed very realistic when I was there a few weeks ago. There's people there, jobs there, a lovely movie theatre, they're even building a carousel for some reason. Isn't it "realistic" that York U is building a campus there?
It's probably the most advanced growth centre in the province, certainly the most advanced greenfield site. And its success only bodes well for VMC, RHC and Langstaff, which are all more centrally located and with access to greater transit.

Yes, Mississauga Centre has seen a lot of development in recent years, but it's still an unpleasant urban environment. The roads are way too wide and fast, there is too much traffic, many existing building are anti-urban or meet the street poorly, there are not many people on the streets, lots of wind-swepped land remains undeveloped, and there is not much to do there other than Square One.

All true, but change takes time. Walking around there is terrible, but it's better than it used to be and it will get better still.
The centres discussed above all have the advantage of being greenfield sites. There won't be wide roads and a massive mall in any of them.

Vaughan on the other hand could have created their own Celebration Square, instead they chose to build their new city hall at Keele & Major Mackenzie. There are also plans to build a large hospital that will employ many people, but it will not be built in VMC. And as 44 North said, council is more interested in supporting unfettered sprawl than urban development.

True, all of it. It undercuts what they're trying to do in VMC, but I don't think it prevents it. There's no subway at Keele/Major Mac and that creates market forces. they're building 35-storey towers on Highway 7, not near City Hall. Getting the mix right is the challenge, of course.

And Home Depot and those big box stores don't have to sell their land and go elsehwere. 1/2 the VMC land is owned by SmartCentres and it will break those leases as soon as it makes financial sense. Same thing at Langstaff/RHC where the DeGasperis family owns all the land. Those issues aren't obstructions at all to this happening. Getting the infrastructure in is the real challenge and if the Yonge subway extension gets funded soon, I expect RHC/Langstaff to overtake the so-far-moribund VMC.