Toronto Social at Church + Dundas | 164.89m | 52s | Pemberton | RAW Design

[Torontovibe]

That looks dreadfully oppressive. I walk by that corner a lot and I would hate to have to see that all the time.

 

[Adjei]

Damn that's one of the ugliest buildings I've seen proposed on this site.

 

[khris]

I really doubt that podium will get built like that. Although this is Pemberton, so who knows. This is clearly just an early render. However, the tower looks like it might be interesting.

 

[salsa]

Because dozens of generic condo towers with featureless, street-deadening podiums have been built in Toronto. People are sick of them being approved and want planners, architects and most of all, developers to be held to a higher design standard going forward. I am glad people are riled up about this. It shows that more people understand what works and what doesn't work in building a better city and our standards are rising (as they should).

I agree with you, but why wasn't there nearly as much outrage at 70 Carlton (aside from the usual Torontovibe rant)? That podium doesn't even have red brick, but somehow this one is "ugliest buildings I've seen", "dreadfully oppressive", "soviet interrogation centre", etc. Is 70 Carlton really that much better?

 

[College Park]

Renders for 70 Carlton and this site have podiums which overhang the sidewalk, which makes them feel oppressive. Sure, they're trying to extract every possible m2 for office or amenity, but that turns the streets into tunnels. I'd recommend these as point towers sans podiums, and make room for wider sidewalks with room for real trees, not shaded and heavily salted render trees.

 

[Tewder]

It would be unrealistic to expect an 'Honest Ed' type of (re)development everywhere. That is a pretty unique case, though i do think it could make a good model for redevelopment in many outlaying nodal areas, on a smaller scale perhaps.

That said, there are examples of alternatives to the life-crushing podium in the city already, and we only have to look further south down Church Street to the Jazz building at Shuter Street. It may not offer drool-worthy iconic Architecture but it does do a good job adding density while maintaing a street-scape that feels diverse and organic and of a scale that is appropriate for preserving an urban pedestrian experience. The pre-existing fabric here may have been better, admittedly, but the scale and approach gets it right in so many ways, and could easily be emulated in an 'empty lot' new development scenario.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Though the Jazz site has the benefit of having real heritage structures that are worthy of preservation - and I am not sure if the project actually added any life on the street beyond the built form given the lackluster retail offerings. There are no reasons why a well-executed, modern podium with high quality materials and good retail can't be equally exciting. The rendering for this project suggests clumsiness however.

AoD

 

[pmilo]

I agree with you, but why wasn't there nearly as much outrage at 70 Carlton (aside from the usual Torontovibe rant)? That podium doesn't even have red brick, but somehow this one is "ugliest buildings I've seen", "dreadfully oppressive", "soviet interrogation centre", etc. Is 70 Carlton really that much better?

For me, it has to do with the scale and surrounding context which differs between 70 Carlton and the one proposed at Church and Dundas. Yes they are both strong podiums, but the one at Church and Dundas just doesn't seem to fit as fluidly in my opinion.

 

[ksun]

^ from the above photos 70 Carlton does look a lot better, maybe because it is a higher quality rendering or the different color pattern.
I agree podiums overhanging the sidewalk like this is not appealing. I much prefer some sort of canopy that protects pedestrians from the rain/snow.

 

[stjames2queenwest]

70 Carlton's podium is not its strong point either (the tower looks great though) but even it is much better than this one. Brick does not equate better. But what really bothers me is the first floor. There is just nothing. And though the buildings there now are shabby pieces of junk. They atleast have personality.
70 Carlton's boring podium is replacing an even more boring building so it doesn't see that bad.

 

[torplanner]

What an abject failure this project will be if the podium is allowed to resemble anything remotely similar to that render. Some projects reveal a developer's clear indifference to a neighbourhood and its current and future residents. This render suggests to me that whoever approved this as a submission has moved beyond indifference to disgust, and is verging on outright loathing for the neighbourhood. It is vile, and a condemnation of our entire planning process, that someone thinks a design like this would get approved. Whoever the local councilor is better be implacably opposed to such sterile banality.

With this part of the city on the cusp of such major change to its built form we really need to do our best to get things started off well. Having something like this be a benchmark for what is acceptable would be a huge disservice to the entire city. The City must demand more than Mississauga style main street retail. Please look around at other proposals like the Honest Ed's redevelopment to see how an individual building can have more interesting retail. If you are going to get 46 storeys then you have to do better than this.

Absolutely this. I couldn't agree more. One only needs to look at the much better podiums proposed at Dundas and Jarvis to see what is possible when the developer gives a crap.

 

[TheKingEast]

What an abject failure this project will be if the podium is allowed to resemble anything remotely similar to that render. Some projects reveal a developer's clear indifference to a neighbourhood and its current and future residents. This render suggests to me that whoever approved this as a submission has moved beyond indifference to disgust, and is verging on outright loathing for the neighbourhood. It is vile, and a condemnation of our entire planning process, that someone thinks a design like this would get approved. Whoever the local councilor is better be implacably opposed to such sterile banality.

With this part of the city on the cusp of such major change to its built form we really need to do our best to get things started off well. Having something like this be a benchmark for what is acceptable would be a huge disservice to the entire city. The City must demand more than Mississauga style main street retail. Please look around at other proposals like the Honest Ed's redevelopment to see how an individual building can have more interesting retail. If you are going to get 46 storeys then you have to do better than this.

Better get used to it. This city jumped the shark a long time ago.

 

[Tewder]

Though the Jazz site has the benefit of having real heritage structures that are worthy of preservation - and I am not sure if the project actually added any life on the street beyond the built form given the lackluster retail offerings. There are no reasons why a well-executed, modern podium with high quality materials and good retail can't be equally exciting. The rendering for this project suggests clumsiness however.

AoD

Yeah i'm not sure Jazz has improved the area (I don't frequent the area enough to know) but i do feel it preserves the potential for improvement. The retail/commercial offerings may be uninspiring right now but the street-level spaces and scale as preserved are urbanely solid and will likely be better used at some point as the area continues to develop...

Also i don't disagree that a modern podium necessarily = bad. There are lots of good examples. In the end it comes down to scale and context. The one designed for here just doesn't seem to address either very well.

 

[Edward Skira]

Of course Jazz improved the area. Certainly safer with more people on the streets compared to before.

 

[torplanner]

It feels like a recycled LTD. red brick design. Uninspired.