Toronto Queens Quay & Water's Edge Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

nfitz said:
Every time I've ridden a streetcar down there, I've seen a auto running through a red light in front of a streetcar. Every time. While these things happen on Fleet and Spadina - personally I've never seen it. I've seen one on Bathurst - but not with a streetcar, and only once.
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"Every single time." Really Nick?

I suppose if you've been down there twice since June, that's believable. But you haven't said that. Instead, you expect us to believe your hyperbole as fact and without doubt.

For the record I'm down there twice a week, every week (and have been for the past multiple years), and I would say that I've only seen it once or twice so far this calendar month. Things have greatly smoothed out since the opening.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
"Every single time." Really Nick?

I suppose if you've been down there twice since June, that's believable. But you haven't said that.
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Thrice actually; I've quantified the number previous. Others are reporting similar. Further up, someone is reporting seeing things very regularly.

smallspy said:
"Instead, you expect us to believe your hyperbole as fact and without doubt.
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What on earth are you talking? I've been consisently saying that they need to make changes and even Waterfront Toronto is saying they need to make changes.

smallspy said:
For the record I'm down there twice a week, every week (and have been for the past multiple years), and I would say that I've only seen it once or twice so far this calendar month.
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So you've already seen it once or twice out of 4 visits ...

Even that's alarming. I don't see problems on Spadina that frequently - heck I can't say I've seen any to tell the truth in years.
 
I'd agree they could do more to assist drivers (and also via enforcement/instructional help from police), but at some point, you have to give up and blame the morons behind the wheel.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/impatient-driver-gets-vehicle-impaled-in-brampton-1.3227859

This city has a scary amount of drivers that can't even navigate simple intersections (and like the link, can't even navigate an empty parking lot) at some point auto-darwinism has to take over.

Maybe some red light cameras down there too? Although I'm not sure if they can catch illegal lefts or just running straight through reds.
 
Yesterday I watched a guy turn left on a green but with the streetcar trying to come through. The streetcar driver was laying on his horn, but the car driver didn't seem to care much. Everyone is in a hurry, and everyone's needs are more important than everyone else's.
 
junior43 said:
This city has a scary amount of drivers that can't even navigate simple intersections (and like the link, can't even navigate an empty parking lot) at some point auto-darwinism has to take over.

Maybe some red light cameras down there too? Although I'm not sure if they can catch illegal lefts or just running straight through reds.
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In fact, I'd argue the relatively unchallenging road conditions in Toronto had lead to a dumbing down of drivers. And forget excessive signage - just put in red light cameras instead.

AoD
 
PinkLucy said:
Yesterday I watched a guy turn left on a green but with the streetcar trying to come through. The streetcar driver was laying on his horn, but the car driver didn't seem to care much. Everyone is in a hurry, and everyone's needs are more important than everyone else's.
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On Queens Quay? I thought all the car left-turns over the track were on Green Arrows - which normally implies the car has right-of-way.

Certainly see such on regular streets all the time, where there's just a simple green light for all vehicles in all directions.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
In fact, I'd argue the relatively unchallenging road conditions in Toronto had lead to a dumbing down of drivers. And forget excessive signage - just put in red light cameras instead.

AoD
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You have a pretty good point there. With TO being basically on a grid system for streets, drivers have been spoon fed with simple intersections and straight forward street light signals. Although that being said there's still a lot of mayhem on our roads.

Basically, you can't fix stupid, and we've got a boat load of stupid drivers in this city.
 
junior43 said:
You have a pretty good point there. With TO being basically on a grid system for streets, drivers have been spoon fed with simple intersections and straight forward street light signals. Although that being said there's still a lot of mayhem on our roads.

Basically, you can't fix stupid, and we've got a boat load of stupid drivers in this city.
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Said it before, and will say it again - there is a reason why something as simple and pretty universal as roundabouts causes no end of grief here. As to mayhem - yeah, considering how unchallenging our road system is (relative to any city with a non-grid system), it just tells you how truly atrocious some of our drivers are.

AoD
 
nfitz said:
On Queens Quay? I thought all the car left-turns over the track were on Green Arrows - which normally implies the car has right-of-way.

Certainly see such on regular streets all the time, where there's just a simple green light for all vehicles in all directions.
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They are, but he was choosing to turn left on a solid green. Like I said, he didn't care. His need to get where he was going trumped the rules apparently.
 
PinkLucy said:
They are, but he was choosing to turn left on a solid green. Like I said, he didn't care. His need to get where he was going trumped the rules apparently.
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I think part of it, is that people don't understand the signage intuitively. Think about the light configuration he sees from left to right:
  1. Two circular green lights with an extra sign saying "Bicycle Signal"
  2. Two circular green lights with an extra sign saying "Transit Signal"
  3. Two circular red lights with an extra sign saying "Left Turn Signal"
  4. Two circular green lights for going straight with no annotation.
So that's 6 lights green and two lights red in his field of view with 3 explanatory signs, quite a lot to take in at once and be intuitive.

Imagine an alternative:
  1. One green light in the shape of a bicycle.
  2. One white bar for the streetcar.
  3. One red light in the shape of a left arrow.
  4. Two circular green lights for cars going straight.
Now, tell me which one of these is more intuitive. It's time for WT to say "screw the outdated Ontario traffic manual" and use signage like they use in the rest of the world. From what I understand red arrows aren't even allowed. That's so 100% more intuitive than a circular red light with explanatory text, I can't even imagine why it would not be used.
 
I can tell you that red right turn arrows are routinely ignored at a Florida intersection I use frequently. So perhaps more intuitive but drivers will be drivers.
 
Napoleon said:
I think part of it, is that people don't understand the signage intuitively. Think about the light configuration he sees from left to right:
  1. Two circular green lights with an extra sign saying "Bicycle Signal"
  2. Two circular green lights with an extra sign saying "Transit Signal"
  3. Two circular red lights with an extra sign saying "Left Turn Signal"
  4. Two circular green lights for going straight with no annotation.
So that's 6 lights green and two lights red in his field of view with 3 explanatory signs, quite a lot to take in at once and be intuitive.

Imagine an alternative:
  1. One green light in the shape of a bicycle.
  2. One white bar for the streetcar.
  3. One red light in the shape of a left arrow.
  4. Two circular green lights for cars going straight.
Now, tell me which one of these is more intuitive. It's time for WT to say "screw the outdated Ontario traffic manual" and use signage like they use in the rest of the world. From what I understand red arrows aren't even allowed. That's so 100% more intuitive than a circular red light with explanatory text, I can't even imagine why it would not be used.
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Yes, they could/should improve the signalling setup BUT, if a driver is confused by too much signage, the default shouldn't be for them to say f*ck it I'll just go now. They should stop/slow down and read it all to understand which is the proper signal for them.
 
junior43 said:
Yes, they could/should improve the signalling setup BUT, if a driver is confused by too much signage, the default shouldn't be for them to say f*ck it I'll just go now. They should stop/slow down and read it all to understand which is the proper signal for them.
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I agree, but for many driving is a rather intuitive process. I doubt that many of the car-streetcar accidents have been caused by people intentionally running lights. I don't have data, but I would be surprised. Certainly an easy comparison would be Spadina….count red light runners and accidents at an intersection there and compare to Queen's Quay. That will control for intentional idiocy or accidental idiocy :)
 
Napoleon said:
I agree, but for many driving is a rather intuitive process. I doubt that many of the car-streetcar accidents have been caused by people intentionally running lights. I don't have data, but I would be surprised. Certainly an easy comparison would be Spadina….count red light runners and accidents at an intersection there and compare to Queen's Quay. That will control for intentional idiocy or accidental idiocy :)
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Driving should NOT be an intuition process ever - you have to react to the road as the conditions dictate.

AoD
 
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