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Toronto prices decline 15% in mid-October

not sure if anyone's posted this yet...

Homeowners' new reality: You're suddenly poorer
Average home values set to drop to below $300,000 threshold
Article Comments (168) LORI MCLEOD AND JOSH WINGROVE

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

November 11, 2008 at 12:16 AM EST

When Pat Webb moved to Vancouver a year ago, she didn't think twice about buying a condo in tony Kitsilano, among the hottest neighbourhoods in the city's booming real estate market.

But in August, the 70-year-old retiree decided to move back to the United States. She had sensed Vancouver's market was slowing, but a neighbour's condo had sold a week earlier, so she too tried to sell.

She listed her one-bedroom, 705-square-foot condo for the price she paid – $509,000 – on Aug. 30. Ms. Webb has since reduced that to $485,000. It still hasn't sold.

Today time is all but up, as Ms. Webb is moving back to California. Barring a last-minute miracle sale by her agent, Lindsay Wilkinson, Ms. Webb said she will try to rent out the condo this year and relist in the spring.

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“I'm disappointed, but not overly surprised,†she said. “I was right on the cusp and then [the market] changed. So timing's everything.â€

After years of making Canadians feel steadily richer, home ownership is starting to do the opposite.

The average value of a resale home is expected to be $297,600 next year, according to the Canadian Real Estate Association. Just three months ago, it was forecasting that number would reach $320,200.

While that kind of decline might be a real hit only to buyers who got in at the peak of the market and want to sell in 2009, it captures an emerging trend where values have begun to erode. Homeowners are about to feel poorer even if they aren't ready to put out a for-sale sign.

The level of existing home sales is also expected to drop both this year and next, leading to the first back-to-back declines in home sales activity since CREA started tracking the numbers in 1980.

“Canadian economic growth is being sideswiped by financial market turmoil, slowing world economic growth and weaker commodity prices,†CREA chief economist Gregory Klump said in a statement.

Consumer confidence has been battered and home buyers are cautious, he added.

This change in sentiment is evident in hard-hit Vancouver, where homeowners have been blindsided by the speed of the housing market downturn.

A sense of irrational exuberance had people stretching to buy homes they couldn't afford, and agents say the overextended market there hit a wall this summer.

Monthly sales levels have been crashing since then, prices are easing on a year-over-year basis and sellers who can afford to do so are pulling out of the market to wait for better days.

In the past two months, for example, 1,435 properties were withdrawn from the Westside Vancouver market, according to information on real estate agent Diane Birk's website.

She and other agents in her office have clients who are considering pulling their listings from the market, Ms. Birk, an agent at Royal LePage Westside, said in an interview.

This includes a couple whose detached home has been on the market since August and failed to find a buyer despite two price reductions totalling $115,000, she said. Another seller is putting a downtown condo on the market, but will pull the listing in 60 days if it doesn't sell.

Ms. Birk said she expects many people will take their homes off the market in December and wait until spring to list them again.

The question is whether the picture will brighten next year.

Across Canada, existing home sales are expected to fall by 12 per cent this year from the year before, CREA said. That decline is expected to moderate to 3 per cent in 2009.

Prices are expected to fall slightly this year and by 2 per cent next year, reversing earlier expectations for yearly gains of 3 per cent in 2008 and 2 per cent in 2009, CREA added.

But next year's price drop could be more severe than what CREA is estimating, said Douglas Porter, deputy chief economist at BMO Nesbitt Burns.

A “disturbing†run-up in personal bankruptcies in September and a weaker employment outlook suggest tougher times loom, he added.

The downturn means some sellers will be unable to wait for better times, something that may have helped buffer the market this year, Mr. Porter said.

BY THE NUMBERS

Housing starts fell by 3.1 per cent to 211,800 units in October from September, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. said yesterday. A more pronounced drop was expected, and tight credit conditions should pinch new construction levels next year, Royal Bank of Canada economist Paul Ferley said in a research note.

New-home prices eked out a year-over-year gain of 2 per cent in September, Statistics Canada said yesterday. This was a smaller increase than in the month before, but higher than expected.

Personal bankruptcy filings rose to 8,347 in September, up 20 per cent from the month before and 30 per cent from the same period a year ago, according to statistics from Industry Canada. For the 12-month period ended Sept. 30, consumer bankruptcy filings were up by 7.2 per cent.

As job losses begin to mount, the cumulative increase in personal bankruptcies could be as high as 15 per cent in the coming 12 months, said Benjamin Tal, economist at CIBC World Markets Inc. “I think that those numbers will go even higher. The labour market is still holding strong, and the No. 1 driver of bankruptcies is the labour market. In the next six months it cannot sustain the kind of performance we've seen until now,†Mr. Tal said.

CIBC estimates the unemployment rate will average 6.8 per cent in 2009. Last month, it stood at 6.2 per cent.
 
$509,000 for 705 sq ft? that is $722 per sq ft, totally insane, that is not even the resale price in YorkVille area. The market is not the problem, you have to be crazy to pay a half of million dollars for 700 sq ft.
 
$509,000 for 705 sq ft? that is $722 per sq ft, totally insane, that is not even the resale price in YorkVille area. The market is not the problem, you have to be crazy to pay a half of million dollars for 700 sq ft.

Just found my dream condo and the guys was asking for $436,800. Dont know what it went for, however today its off the market. So, my guess is he got something around that price range. Funny enough it was the same size.
I dont think its the one I was looking at but you never know.
 
$509,000 for 705 sq ft? that is $722 per sq ft, totally insane, that is not even the resale price in YorkVille area. The market is not the problem, you have to be crazy to pay a half of million dollars for 700 sq ft.

I've read about a lot of places in Vanc. going for insanely high PPSQ. I wonder if they'll see a Beijing-style real-estate crash after 2010?
 
Just found my dream condo and the guys was asking for $436,800. Dont know what it went for, however today its off the market. So, my guess is he got something around that price range. Funny enough it was the same size.
I dont think its the one I was looking at but you never know.

Or he didn't get any offers in his range, and so delisted it so as to list it again in the spring. If you want to know, it should be easy enough to contact the broker. Tell him you are not represented and are looking for something just like that one, and at that price. Watch how fast he responds:D
 
price declines will escalate in 2009

a moderate decline predicted for 2009 after a steep decline in 2008? That would require the job market to stabilize or improve to offset the decline in demand. There's only three ways this can occur:
1. massive drop in CAD value spurs foreign business
2. massive recovery of commodities sector
3. massive demand in a Canada-only product (tech, medicine, etc)

But the fundamentals are going against it. Unlike Europe, we are sheltered from the carry trade problems of cross border loans, but a US-style deflation in housing prices is very possible. Sub-prime describes the quality of the borrowing, not really the type of loan. Essentially, anyone who cannot afford payments, becomes sub-prime. It will happen in Canada.

And unlike the US, the bulk of Canadian condo resale purchases were from foreign investors who took the money out of Canada.

Don't want to go over what's been covered by economists and Garth Turner, but one point a lot of people left out are the mortgage resets:

Starting in 2004, Canada relaxed a lot of requirements. First the increase to 40 year ammortizations, followed by 0% mortgages. A typical individual signs a mortgage for 4-5 years. When mortgage renewals come up and buyers are now required to readjust for the new 35 year ammortization and 5% minimum, it's likely monthly payments will go up significantly. A lot of individuals who barely made approval, will be out of affordability, and possibly out of a mortgage as someone who took out a 0% mortgage, might not have accumulated the 5% in the time frame.

So, 2009 should be the beginning of escalating price declines as more mortgages are reset and people are pushed into unaffordability. It will get worse in 2011-12, when a lot of the purchasers from 2007, the height of the 0%/40yr purchases, are up for renewal.

There's a partial silver lining. Our mortgages are in CAD. If we spur exports with a falling dollar, we can stabilize or improve the job market. Technology and services could boon, and move us away from resource-heaviness. BUT a worldwide recession dampens overall demand in general. So there's still lots of risks.
 
Starting in 2004, Canada relaxed a lot of requirements. First the increase to 40 year ammortizations, followed by 0% mortgages. A typical individual signs a mortgage for 4-5 years. When mortgage renewals come up and buyers are now required to readjust for the new 35 year ammortization and 5% minimum, it's likely monthly payments will go up significantly. A lot of individuals who barely made approval, will be out of affordability, and possibly out of a mortgage as someone who took out a 0% mortgage, might not have accumulated the 5% in the time frame.

So, 2009 should be the beginning of escalating price declines as more mortgages are reset and people are pushed into unaffordability. It will get worse in 2011-12, when a lot of the purchasers from 2007, the height of the 0%/40yr purchases, are up for renewal.


This is precisely the scenario in the US.

Many who purchased are using ARMs (Adjustable Rate Mortgages) that reset to a higher interest rate anywhere from 3-5 years. That puts alot of them come due in 2009.

With depreciating asset values and tighter credit markets - all hell will break lose! The turmoil in the US financial markets in 2008 will look like a joyride.:eek:
 
This is precisely the scenario in the US.

Many who purchased are using ARMs (Adjustable Rate Mortgages) that reset to a higher interest rate anywhere from 3-5 years. That puts alot of them come due in 2009.

With depreciating asset values and tighter credit markets - all hell will break lose! The turmoil in the US financial markets in 2008 will look like a joyride.:eek:

we might be getting a little carried away here...
 
we might be getting a little carried away here...


That's what some thought when I told them DOW should be valued at 7,500 last year - not many listened.

There are alot of derivatives that are subjected to defaults.
One of the main determining factors of how bad it may get has to do with the outstanding mortgages, and if FI are willing to write off some of the principal to make it affordable so the home owners can/will continue paying it vs. walking away.
 
we might be getting a little carried away here...

We may be too pessimistic, but I'm siding with CDR108. It's not the mortgages that frighten us, but the insurance.

In the US, mortgages were insured by other financial institutions such as AIG. But in Canada, our mortgages are insured by the government. With our debt to GDP the highest of any G7 nation, a housing fallout half as bad as that of the US, would decimate federal coffers.

Biggest evidence of this is Canada's infusion of nearly $80 billion into Canadian banks. If our banks are supposedly healthy, flush with cash, and immune to the credit crisis, why the money?
 
That's what some thought when I told them DOW should be valued at 7,500 last year - not many listened.

There are alot of derivatives that are subjected to defaults.
One of the main determining factors of how bad it may get has to do with the outstanding mortgages, and if FI are willing to write off some of the principal to make it affordable so the home owners can/will continue paying it vs. walking away.

Good day all,

Newbie here. Mr. Cdr108, a question for you please:

If you honestly believed that the DJIA was poised for a 40% drop in 2007 then did you act on your belief with an index put?

Also, do you have any other words of wisdom for us novice investors today? Is oil going to rebound? Will the US tank against Euro? Is there a rebound coming in the housing market such that US MBS debt is priced at a steal?

Thank you very much for your valuable input.

Seeker
 
We may be too pessimistic, but I'm siding with CDR108. It's not the mortgages that frighten us, but the insurance.

In the US, mortgages were insured by other financial institutions such as AIG. But in Canada, our mortgages are insured by the government. With our debt to GDP the highest of any G7 nation, a housing fallout half as bad as that of the US, would decimate federal coffers.

Biggest evidence of this is Canada's infusion of nearly $80 billion into Canadian banks. If our banks are supposedly healthy, flush with cash, and immune to the credit crisis, why the money?

US homeowners can walk away from the mortgage and the bank takes the hit of any loss from the resale. In Canada this is not the case, and the only way to walk away is to declare personal bankruptcy.

For this reason I don't think we will see a run on the CMHC's insurance to the same extent that we have seen US homeowners default. Its misleading to compare the present Canadian default rate of 0.3% with the US rate of 4%, since we are so clearly comparing apples to oranges. Although if we are indeed tracking a couple of years behind the US housing downturn, then I don't think it is unreasonable to see our default rate climb up to possibly 1.5% range over the next few years.

I think that because of this difference many Canadian homeowners will find themselves tied to their mortgage for the duration of their 5 year mortgage even if property values decline to the point where they have negative equity.

Unfortunetly when it comes time to renegotiate their mortgage in 2009-2013, then those who have been hanging on hoping for a rebound in housing prices will find themselves in a very difficult position. Banks will not provide a mortgage in excess of the appraised market value of a property. Thus homeowners with negative equity at the time of renewal will be forced to pay higher mortgage rates to non-bank lenders, or to sell at a loss. Those most vulnerable will be those who entered the market in response to the high ratio mortage changes of 2006 and bought over the past couple of years.

Ironically, many of those who bought in the past 2-3 years with high ratio mortgages are probably feeling pretty good about themselves right about now if they have a Prime minus 0.5% mortage. As the BoC cuts rates perhaps again in Dec, they are sitting pretty. This could change dramatically in 2010 if our present deflationary environment is eventually overwhelmed by the huge recent increases in the money supply by Central banks globally and we turn the corner into an inflationary environment.

In consideration of the above, I think we'll see our Canadian problems running out over a much longer horizon of the next 3-5 years, even as the US and other countries are bouncing back in a couple of years.
 
Dave, totally agree with you and put in words far better than I.

A trend I've noticed more in Canada than in the US, is mortgage-backing by parental consent/equity. I loathe to take this into consideration, but it supports your point of fewer default rates.

I agree that should Canada suffer a decline, it would be a prolonged one as you pointed out, but I think this might hasten defaults and negate the stigma of personal bankruptcy some argue would prevent a US-style run on mortgage insurance because I see it in former manufacturing towns in Ontario.

Ideal scenario: housing prices plummet, but canadians maintain income level to support their mortgage payments or should they sell at a loss, pay down debt difference, much like they did during the 70's and 80's. However, the average house per income was actually 4 times more affordable back then.

possible case (already happening in some parts of ontario): job losses, housing plummets, canadians shouldered with $100k+ negative equity, $20k+ other debt, huge investment losses, and no way to pay back. personal bankruptcy declaration.
 

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