Toronto Ontario Place | ?m | ?s | Infrastructure ON

To take this in chunks:

A 400M (potential) cash out lay is proposed.

Assuming the government borrows that money (since it reports being in deficit we must assume that this would be contributing to same), we have to look at the government's borrowing cost on that investment.
Currently, the government of Ontario is borrowing money at 4.6%. If you amortize the repayment over 25 years, this adds 67% to your all-in cost.

ie. 1M borrowed would see 1.67M repaid over 25 years.

Even at 190M in direct capital cost you'd be looking at ~ 317M in total cost. One must then add annual operating costs such as maintence, staff, payment fees to credit cards, property tax, if applicable etc.
There is no way that anything less than 400M in gross revenue over that period would achieve a break-even position.

****

Now lets add, I find it highly improbably that the parking will be full every single day of the year, that would be a both a phenomenal business achievement but also very dysfunctional as it would mean customers being turned away every day.
If $15M in gross revenue were optimal as suggested above, I would think a reasonable assumption would be 70% occupancy when factored over 365 days.
That would suggest annual gross revenue of 10.5M On a constant dollar basis, that wouldn't repay the parking for 38 years. (using the 400M number)



I confess to disliking Live Nation's plans as well....... but I digress.

There appears to be sufficient parking on site to meet the needs of all existing users and the historic demand of Ontario Place which should not reasonably be greater than the parklands.

Only 'new tenants' can justify the investment, and you're limited then to Therme and the OSC.



On this we can definitely agree.
I’m not trying to go down the rabbit hole of determining exact costs of the garage and it’s lifetime subsidy which may or may not be there, just stating that without details from the province we have no idea of the investment here and how much the province is spending vs. Therme, especially when you break down how a lot of what the province is spending is very much to public benefit (science centre, park upgrades, etc).

The existing science centre has a couple thousand parking spaces in its own right. Given the smaller size and better transit access of Ontario Place I expect it to be lower demand here.. but at the very least hundreds of spaces are needed for the science centre alone.
 
Marcus Gee of the Globe and Mail is often an interesting read. Today he has a differing take on the current plans for Ontario Place and its planned changes. Currently the article is for subscribers only, but a brief quote……”Opponents of the plan to redevelop Toronto’s Ontario Place depict it as a dastardly plot to steal prime public land from the masses, turning it over to a private international company for the construction of a “luxury spa.”
 That has things completely backward. The whole point is to bring the masses back to Ontario Place, which the government closed in 2012 after years of decay and declining attendance. One of the draws is to be a giant waterpark and, yes, spa that will include waterslides, thermal baths and steam rooms in a lush, glassed-in enclosure, open year-round. Revised plans were released this week and they look pretty great.” The balance of the article is worth a read, a different perspective on the planned development, and whether we agree with Gee or not, good journalism is always worth the price of a coffee at Tim’s…
 
I guess the Gee article is a reminder there are other opinions out there and it's not so much a question of right or wrong... but also some people are drinking the Kool Aid the government is selling. Here's another quote from the article:

Though the critics may turn up their noses, ordinary people flock to such attractions, whether it is Great Wolf Lodge in Niagara Falls or the Biodôme in Montreal. The Ontario Place project is just an updated version of this fun-for-the-whole-family approach, with wellness and water as its focus.

I think there's a lot to take issue with here. Firstly, no one objects to the existence or popularity of Great Wolf Lodge or the Biodome, which are two very different attractions but OK.
But last I checked, Great Wolf Lodge is located on private land a couple of miles north of Niagara Falls. If it were located on NPC land, next door to Table Rock, I'd suggest it would be a very different matter. As it stands, the more tawdry attractions at Niagara Falls are on Clifton Hill and the Parks Commission keeps waterslides and wax museums off its own lands. There's also that (again, far as I know) Great Wolf Lodge does not claim to be a "wellness centre" serving a public good, through its waterslides. It's just a waterpark and hotel.

Now, some people are very dogmatic about Ontario Place and I agree with Gee that there is value in having a real, active attraction there (and frankly, I could even see a ferris wheel working here). But you can't look at these issues in isolation. What kind of attraction it is is one issue. How it was tendered is another, particularly as it realtes to the public investment in stuff like parking. How the architecture relates to what's already there is another. And how this all ties into the Science Centre land grab is a whole other thing.

EDIT: Just to add, this is also dumb:

It is not at all unusual to put such an attraction on a prime waterfront site. London has a giant Ferris wheel, called London Eye, on the bank of the Thames, opposite Big Ben and the Houses of Parliament. Chicago has Navy Pier.

Most people are not objecting to the well-understood concept of tourist attractions near water. We already have Harbourfront and the islands (and Ontario Place!) and many other things and we are aware there are thousands of other such things around the wolrld. That said, I would at least agree that if something akin to Navy Pier was proposed, some people would likely be objecting to that as well - I mean, we don't need a Bubba Gump Shrimp Company but, hey, we already have the IMAX theatre.
But for most of us, I think the concerns are both broader and deeper, starting with what Ontario Place has been and not just considering what its future should be and how that decision was made and what the implications of it really are.

So to assert that critics are "wrong" because there's a Ferris Wheel at Navy Pier and people like checking out the rain forest at the Biodome is not, in my opinion, an entirely coherent argument. I won't make blanket accusation (like he does) that he is "wrong," but he is missing some things people are concerned about.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, his putting Great Wolf Lodge up front is problematic--there, we *really are* dealing with "ordinary people"; heck, I'd claim it to be crasser, in its way, than Clifton Hill, mainly through its insular denial of its own crassness.

As such, it's more like the Great Canadian Casino Resort at Woodbine (and how it might as well be interchangeable w/the likes of DurhamLive!) than like the casinos in Niagara Falls.
 
I guess it's a small miracle they're not putting a casino at Ontario Place but I think the point all along is there's nothing inherently wrong with a casino or a waterpark or whatever. Indeed, all things being equal, I think the Therme Spa sounds like a fun place to visit. Cool, even! The question is simply whether it shoudl go here (and at what cost [to taxpayers, the environment, etc.]. Clearly many people feel it shouldn't be on prime public land where there have always been recreational uses, though it is entirely true those have included things like waterslides and various paid attractions.

GWL is on a nothing site, several km from the falls and even Clifton Hill is away from them. There's another waterpark at the top of Clifton Hill; who cares? But the NPC have maintained the area directly along the falls in a manner that generally keeps all that stuff away because we, as a society, have decided that's important. If Therme was puttings its spa at Woodbine or Vaughan Mills or whatever, no one would care.

And then he mentions Biodome which is nothing like Ontario Place OR GFL. I haven't been there in years but I seem to recall it was a repurposed building in the Olympic park., much closer in spirit ot the Science Centre than Ontario Place or Great Wolf Lodge. And, again, if they announced they made a deal with a company to turn the pods into something like the Biodome, I don't think anyone would be complaining. But trying to spin a spa/waterpark as the same kind of attraction is disinenguous.

What "ordinary people enjoy" is just a huge red herring. (And that's without gettnig into the bigger picture of what this government is currently getting roasted for, which makes any "secret" deal they have going on deserving of major scrutiny, IMHO.)
 
GWL is on a nothing site, several km from the falls and even Clifton Hill is away from them. There's another waterpark at the top of Clifton Hill; who cares? But the NPC have maintained the area directly along the falls in a manner that generally keeps all that stuff away because we, as a society, have decided that's important. If Therme was puttings its spa at Woodbine or Vaughan Mills or whatever, no one would care.
Actually, while it's *buffered* from the falls, Clifton Hill *isn't* so "removed" from the falls as GWL--it's really just an uphill walk, after all. In fact, that "urban symbiosis", that relative proximity/immediacy of the falls, has *always* been part of the electricity of Clifton Hill. It truly is a place-definer--and even its high-concentration tackiness is excusable, in a classic honky-tonk, "Learning From Las Vegas" way.

By comparison, GWL is placeless. As you say, on a nothing site. Walking from there to anyplace, or from anyplace to there, is unthinkable--it's an island by design and by programme. (Yeah, one *could* walk there; but-it feels like a Will Self or Iain Sinclair conceit to do so.) At most, maybe a northern pendant to Marineland in that light--but at least Marineland's more "outside-focused" by nature and design (I'm not arguing on behalf of the *ethics* of Marineland; that's a different hornet's nest).

Clifton Hill feels like it's part of a city. The casinos feel like they're part of a city. Even the string of hotels/motels along Lundy's Lane feel like they're part of a city..

GWL doesn't feel like it's part of a city.

In fact, it appeals to that "ordinary people" impulse that acutely fears the city, and seeks safely insulated alternative environments. Who seek a pod experience--an all-in-one McExperience. And as such, as a "family destination", it might as well be the beast that ate Niagara Falls...
 
2,000 spots at 100% occupancy at $20 a day for 365 days a year generates $15M a year of gross revenue, which does not account for any sort of maintenance of the lot or real-estate taxes. So I would argue that a $400M parking garage is a huge capital cost and subsidy. That's a 27 year pay back (and I'm not even doing any sort of discount cash-flow analysis which would make the payback even longer, and I'm not even considering the fact that the parking lot won't have 100% occupancy). This is a HUGE waste of taxpayer money to subsidize a really wasteful endeavor (a private spa). Every single Torontonian should be up in arms over this.
Some of us who like the Therme project by itself are still 100% against the underground parking plan. Is there specific evidence that Therme demanded the parking? As opposed to this being a government decision to provide parking for Ontario Place as a whole, including for Live Nation, the marina, etc?
 
All of these places have plenty of parking already is there any evidence that they will need more with the addition of the spa? There is a half square km of parking directly adjacent to Ontario Place. I would be swayed by that argument if parking was in any way at a premium at this site. It might be available for everyone, but the government is building it to service the demand of the spa way more than any other potential use. They frankly don't need to build it at all, which makes it all the more confusing.
Except the plan calls for reducing the surface parking. It aims to use one lot for the new Science Centre & reduce another to make it more green.
 
Actually, while it's *buffered* from the falls, Clifton Hill *isn't* so "removed" from the falls as GWL--it's really just an uphill walk, after all. In fact, that "urban symbiosis", that relative proximity/immediacy of the falls, has *always* been part of the electricity of Clifton Hill. It truly is a place-definer--and even its high-concentration tackiness is excusable, in a classic honky-tonk, "Learning From Las Vegas" way.
...

In fact, it appeals to that "ordinary people" impulse that acutely fears the city, and seeks safely insulated alternative environments. Who seek a pod experience--an all-in-one McExperience. And as such, as a "family destination", it might as well be the beast that ate Niagara Falls...

Yeah, this is all true.
But even so, the Provincial agency maintains ownership of the lands directly along the river and at the edge of the falls. It's not a perfect comparison but Clifton Hiill's proximity to the falls is a bit like the Ex is to Ontario Place's waterfront; it's kinda across the street, tying into the city. Which makes me think that one thing lost in all of this is the extensive talk over the years of what to do with the Ex, as a year-round piece of City-owned land, in relation to Ontario Place and creating a proper place. Instead we have a subway going to the Ex and 5,000 new parking spaces going at Ontario Place; there's no holistic plan, which makes the whole thing dumber. (Ultimately, Therme should probably be somewhere on the urban edge, like Woodbine but even the Ex makes more sense than Ontario Place. And I was at the Ex and Therme had a booth where people could VR-experience the new, amazing place they're building. I skipped it.)
 
Some of us who like the Therme project by itself are still 100% against the underground parking plan. Is there specific evidence that Therme demanded the parking? As opposed to this being a government decision to provide parking for Ontario Place as a whole, including for Live Nation, the marina, etc?
Therme themselves didnt ask for the parking, the professional engineers doing the traffic study did.
Infrastructure Ontario, in partnership with Therme did all the architectural studies together.
This parking lot would be needed even if this was a government run attraction
 
Another great article by this guy

a quote id like to point out

Simon Bredin, Therme Canada’s senior manager of communications and public engagement, said in a media briefing on Tuesday that Ontario Place, which was created in 1971, was always meant to be a “place for active fun, not just naturalistic parks.” He also said the company’s polling shows the plans are “very, very popular.” He added that the “overwhelming majority” of Ontario Place – about 68 per cent – will remain publicly accessible space.
Completely agree

also love people thinking no one is going to go to this as if Great Wolf Lodge isnt one of the most popular attractions for families in Canada
 
Yeah, this is all true.
But even so, the Provincial agency maintains ownership of the lands directly along the river and at the edge of the falls. It's not a perfect comparison but Clifton Hiill's proximity to the falls is a bit like the Ex is to Ontario Place's waterfront; it's kinda across the street, tying into the city. Which makes me think that one thing lost in all of this is the extensive talk over the years of what to do with the Ex, as a year-round piece of City-owned land, in relation to Ontario Place and creating a proper place. Instead we have a subway going to the Ex and 5,000 new parking spaces going at Ontario Place; there's no holistic plan, which makes the whole thing dumber. (Ultimately, Therme should probably be somewhere on the urban edge, like Woodbine but even the Ex makes more sense than Ontario Place. And I was at the Ex and Therme had a booth where people could VR-experience the new, amazing place they're building. I skipped it.)
Just to clarify re the snip in your quote from myself (in case nobody refers to the source of said quote): my reference to "insulated alternative environments" for people who acutely fear the city referred to Great Wolf Lodge, not to Clifton Hill.
 
also love people thinking no one is going to go to this as if Great Wolf Lodge isnt one of the most popular attractions for families in Canada
Actually, it isn't about *whether* GWL is a popular family attraction or not; it's about the *kind* of "popular family attraction" it is. Or to reiterate my quote...

In fact, it appeals to that "ordinary people" impulse that acutely fears the city, and seeks safely insulated alternative environments. Who seek a pod experience--an all-in-one McExperience. And as such, as a "family destination", it might as well be the beast that ate Niagara Falls...

That "beast that ate Niagara Falls" notion actually *acknowledges* GWL's "popularity-to-a-fault", so to speak

Or to drag this into the broader Ford-o-sphere, it's a popular attraction for families in the same way that a McMansion new build in the Greenbelt is a popular living-aspirational goal for families.
 
Therme themselves didnt ask for the parking, the professional engineers doing the traffic study did.
Infrastructure Ontario, in partnership with Therme did all the architectural studies together.
This parking lot would be needed even if this was a government run attraction
Parking only needed for delivery trucks. If we had a streetcar looping around the perimeter of Exhibition Place, there would be less need for parking for patrons of Ontario Place.
 
Therme themselves didnt ask for the parking, the professional engineers doing the traffic study did.
Infrastructure Ontario, in partnership with Therme did all the architectural studies together.
This parking lot would be needed even if this was a government run attraction
Citation needed.
 

Back
Top