Toronto Ontario Place | ?m | ?s | Infrastructure ON

One always assumes they do their due diligence- but perhaps not. I like the idea of more conifers, I've always thought the city needed more greenery through the long grey period between Nov and May.

I'm in complete agreement on more (appropriate) use of the (right) conifer species.

I think in the right context they could be exceedingly elegant street trees, and/or good for medians.

But you have to put the right stuff, in the right place.

In my experience its a real problem w/landscape architects. They choose trees more often as if shopping for the latest throw to go over a couch.

The thoughts are of pretty-ness based on a catalogue image rather than on viability. (see Bloor Street again).

Even where they possess the requisite knowledge, many L.A.s don't have a proper awareness of the real-world conditions their landscapes will have to endure. (ie. road salt, sun coming from one direction only, no watering program/irrigation, other urban abuses)

I don't want to be too harsh on the whole profession, their are some really capable folks; but I have run into a disappointingly large number whose skill-set is not appropriate to their job.
 
One always assumes they do their due diligence- but perhaps not. I like the idea of more conifers, I've always thought the city needed more greenery through the long grey period between Nov and May.

For awhile now I've come to the conclusion that they can be fire hazards, also that many are easy to climb so might be a liability. Not sure if this is true but it makes sense. With the way branches come off trees like white pine it's basically a ladder for anyone feeling mildly adventurous. And with oily spruces any dried/dead branches one spark and it's a towering inferno. I'd love to see more greenery in our grey, grey winters and spring. But maybe there is a tangible reason evergreens are not chosen often.
 

Important to note -

This RFP is for Design Services for Celebration Common at Ontario Place. The project involves approximately 20 acres on the east island. The design services consist of all required services for the design and subsequent construction of the project. This includes conceptual design through to contract administration of construction.

The strategic objectives of the project are to create a flexible green space for open-air cultural activities, public art, festivals and community events, create opportunities for recreational use and incorporate best environmental sustainability practices into the site’s design and operation.


AoD
 
News Release

Huge New Public Green Space Coming to Toronto's Waterfront
November 21, 2017

Celebration Common Would Continue Transformation of Ontario Place into Vibrant Year-Round Destination
The province is proceeding with planning and design work for a huge new green space on Toronto's waterfront as it moves ahead with the transformation of Ontario Place into a vibrant, public, year-round waterfront destination.

As part of the broader revitalization of Ontario Place the province is seeking a design consultant for a Celebration Common on the East Island of Ontario Place. The almost 20-acre proposed Celebration Common, approximately the size of 14 football fields, would be a flexible green space for open-air cultural activities, festivals, community events and recreation in downtown Toronto.

The Celebration Common would connect Ontario Place's West Island, the new Trillium Park and William G. Davis Trail and the recently reopened Cinesphere through a system of pedestrian and bike trails. Transforming the East Island of Ontario Place into a year-round, public destination would create a cultural and recreational destination for people in Ontario, welcome visitors from around the world and boost the local economy.

Planning a vibrant waterfront destination is part of Ontario's plan to create fairness and opportunity during this period of rapid economic change. The plan includes a higher minimum wage and better working conditions, free tuition for hundreds of thousands of students, easier access to affordable child care, and free prescription drugs for everyone under 25 through the biggest expansion of medicare in a generation.


QUICK FACTS
  • The request for proposals is available on MERX and closes on December 21, 2017.
  • Ontario’s Place’s Cinesphere reopened to the public on November 3 with regular, year-round IMAX screenings.
  • In October 2017, the province concluded a 14-week call for submission process to find a partner(s) for its West Island.
  • The Trillium Park and William G. Davis Trail opened in June 2017, welcoming people back to a spectacular piece of Toronto’s waterfront for the first time in over forty years.
 
I'm wondering, is this going to be just more grass and trees or are they going to build something that will be an attraction with something fun to do? If it's going to be a year-round destination, it needs some indoor buildings for winter use . A few decent restaurants/bars/cafes wouldn't hurt either!
 
Exactly. Just another featureless nature park would be incredibly lame. It needs something extra to create vibrancy and a need to go there. Give Claude Cormier carte blanche here.
 
Exactly. Just another featureless nature park would be incredibly lame. It needs something extra to create vibrancy and a need to go there. Give Claude Cormier carte blanche here.

Actually this is one project that I don't think suits CCA very well - their forte is intensely urban spaces (squares, avenues) and this site isn't it.

AoD
 
Exactly. Just another featureless nature park would be incredibly lame. It needs something extra to create vibrancy and a need to go there. Give Claude Cormier carte blanche here.

Toronto needs more wide open green spaces. Not everything has to be programmed.

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Trinity Bellwoods Park is arguably one of our greatest parks and it’s largely unprogrammed. It’s its location and its surroundings that make it popular.

The lots to the north should be developed as job hubs and cultural facilities. Liberty Village and Fort York close by provide the residential density.

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Toronto needs more wide open green spaces. Not everything has to be programmed.

Trinity Bellwoods Park is arguably one of our greatest parks and it’s largely unprogrammed. It’s its location and its surroundings that make it popular.

The lots to the north should be developed as job hubs and cultural facilities. Liberty Village and Fort York close by provide the residential density.

We do, but I don't see this space as a great candidate for it either. Personally I want something that furthers the futuristic (or at this point, retrofuturistic) architecture of the pavilions - this is one space that can use crazier landscape architecture that will be inappropriate elsewhere. It need to provide a sense of wonder and possibilities - defaulting to what LAND/West 8 did with the eastern portion (beyond the outer edge of the site) won't suffice.

AoD
 
I think that the periphery of the big lawn and the land side lots can contain the futuristic architecture. A village of pavillions mimicking the original angular ones see in the bottom of the postcard below can be scattered along the edges. They can host restaurants, ice cream parlours, coffee shops and other businesses that would cater to a park going crowd.

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There aren't really any spaces downtown where a Trinity Bellwoods style park can go. This is pretty much the last chance other than Rail Deck Park which I doubt is going to be open space, given the preliminary concepts we've seen.
 
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I really do not want a Trinity-Bellwoods style park here. I am sorry, but the rest of the world considers that style of lawn-park dreadfully boring, not worth visiting, and in the winter time, openly hostile.

The City of Toronto is now >50% visible minority, so unless the goal is to exclude non-Anglo Saxons from the public space, I really think we should be aiming for something with more international appeal, especially considering Ontario Place's position on the waterfront and as a major potential attraction.
 
I really do not want a Trinity-Bellwoods style park here. I am sorry, but the rest of the world considers that style of lawn-park dreadfully boring, not worth visiting, and in the winter time, openly hostile.

The City of Toronto is now >50% visible minority, so unless the goal is to exclude non-Anglo Saxons from the public space, I really think we should be aiming for something with more international appeal, especially considering Ontario Place's position on the waterfront and as a major potential attraction.

I don't happen to care for the all (or mostly) lawn aesthetic. Though I must admit the idea of linking such a landscape concept w/ethnicity disturbs me.

Not least, because in my experience, most similar areas are booked by non-anglo-saxon groups disproportionately (which is fine) but which makes the statement above factually dubious.

I assume no ill-will . I just find it unjustified.

The argument that it would prove hostile in winter is much more compelling.

*****

Personally, I think the challenge of making this a vital space, other than a revitalized theme park, is one of its isolation from the balance of the City.

I think that's the most compelling challenge irrespective of design-ethos.

It requires settling the long-term future of Exhibition Place and Lake Shore Blvd.

If one can't address those issues satisfactorily; I'd be inclined to naturalize most of the site (excluding the pods/cinesphere area) so that at least one obtains the environmental benefit and reduced maintenance cost.
 
I don't happen to care for the all (or mostly) lawn aesthetic. Though I must admit the idea of linking such a landscape concept w/ethnicity disturbs me.

Not least, because in my experience, most similar areas are booked by non-anglo-saxon groups disproportionately (which is fine) but which makes the statement above factually dubious.

I assume no ill-will . I just find it unjustified.

The argument that it would prove hostile in winter is much more compelling.
It is not disturbing in the least. The history of parks in North America is derived from the conservationist movement, of which there is absolutely nothing wrong with, other than that it is largely a movement that came from Britain and the United States and is not the image of a park shared by the rest of the world.

Unsurprisingly, parks are used and perceived differently by people of different origin. Our pastoral conservationist lawn-park (such as Trinity-Bellwoods) caters quite well to Anglo-Saxon Canadians, but not so well with other populations.

Here is a good source for what I am talking about, with first hand accounts of different perspectives on Waterloo Park (a lawn-park in Waterloo). I know people don't like reading, so I pulled some quotes from Chinese-Canadians, South and South-West Asian Canadians, and Caribbean-Canadians:
  • “I’m all about quality spaces not quantity spaces, so Waterloo Park is just a big open lawn to me. I mean that in a negative way because it doesn’t introduce anything. It doesn’t matter if the park is big if you don’t create a space that people want to go to.”
  • “The problem with Waterloo Park is that it’s too plain, too bland, there is too much grass. There should be gardens with flowers or some sort of theme gardens. Right now, I don’t know, it just looks too dull and too boring. It’s just grass.”
  • "A lot of people like it because they can play sports like soccer or ultimate frisbee, but to me it’s a lot of green space that is just grass. It doesn’t do anything and doesn’t even look nice.”
  • "Parks in China (...) are artificially made but look natural. They have a lake, rocks and theme parks with a lot of flowers… they are very beautiful and relaxing… You can rent a boat, and they have opened areas for Ti-Chi, or picture studios for wedding photo sessions. They are quality spaces, really nicely designed.”
  • "In Waterloo Park there are so many dead, bushy trees that don’t look like they are being maintained. When I was there I just felt that I didn't belong there.”
  • “[I do not] like Waterloo Park very much. In Saudi Arabia, parks are social places with nice landscaping, and with more entertainment, like restaurants, café’s, sports clubs and boat rentals.”
  • “In Egypt there are fewer parks but they are bigger. The main focus of the park is to have variety of theme gardens, flowers, fountains, cafes and restaurants, gyms, tennis courts, outdoor swimming pool, and at night they have movies. It’s a bit more artificial scenery than what’s in Waterloo Park, but I really like it. I used to go there all the time!”
  • “Jamaican parks look much different than in Canada. There are more like gardens; they are well maintained with lots of flowers, fish, nice gazebos, fruit trees that you can pick a fruit by yourself and other attractions. I don’t go to Waterloo Park because there is nothing there. I mean, it’s just [an] open field of grass with a few trees.”
  • “ I like when the park is divided into sections, like when you can have a flower garden with a nice gazebo and it’s more of a calm space for contemplation and then you have a more open area for people to picnic and socialize, [with] other areas to walk around. I like if there is a variety, something for everyone.”
  • "Another female participant of African-Caribbean origins made similar comments. She also said she finds Waterloo Park “dull” and would like to see “more flowers and theme gardens,” like the gardens she visited in Trinidad.."

Caucasian Canadians however, in sharp contrast to non-Caucasian Canadians, liked Waterloo Park. Here is what they liked about it:
  • “I like to have a lot of greenery that is well kept, but not so much that it doesn’t look natural.”
  • “I like trees and grass better because flowers are so artificial.”
  • “I like that in Waterloo Park there is a lot of mature trees, as well as that they have a woodlot natural area that is more wild."

So yah, there is a difference in what people look for in parks. It is not an ethnicity/race thing, but a cultural one.

Believe me, I am definitely not the type to be pushing diversity for the sake of diversity (as seems to be commonplace nowadays) but when it comes to park design there is a point to be made. Our perception of what a good park is, is incredibly anglo-canadian centric, and dreadfully boring in my opinion.
 
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When you predetermine based on someone's background what they think of something without asking them first, you'll find you piss people off.

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