Toronto Ontario Place | ?m | ?s | Infrastructure ON

[dt_toronto_geek]

My kids love the CNE. Junk food and rides are cool. The flea market aspect not so much.

There goes that theory.
I mentioned that because of my last experience there. One of my best friends took her son & his friend to the CNE about three years ago and I tagged along, they were around 14-15 at the time. We met up with them a few times, it wasn't crazy busy but I recall that they appeared a little bored and not very enthusiastic. Somehow I got sun stroke by late afternoon and puked my guts out and they wanted to go so we all left together by around 6pm. I couldn't help but do what I'd done the last couple of times I was there - walk around and remember when rides, games and food booths seemed to be everywhere, the Alpine Way moved above, if we got separated we would meet at the Bulova tower and we could hear the concerts at night from the Grandstand. I'm not of the Canada's Wonderland generation, I just missed it (I really don't like roller coasters anyway) so the CNE is where my memories as a kid and teenager are firmly anchored, and I miss the way it used to be a lot. Now there's not even an Ontario Place to spend a few hours at anymore.

 

[Edward Skira]

My kids are 6 and 3 so they have no point of comparison. I remember the CNE from back in the 70's when it still was a big deal. Not even close today but, as I said, my kids have no comparison. Not surprisingly that I didn't go for years until the kids arrived.

 

[Torontovibe]

There goes that theory.
I mentioned that because of my last experience there. One of my best friends took her son & his friend to the CNE about three years ago and I tagged along, they were around 14-15 at the time. We met up with them a few times, it wasn't crazy busy but I recall that they appeared a little bored and not very enthusiastic. Somehow I got sun stroke by late afternoon and puked my guts out and they wanted to go so we all left together by around 6pm. I couldn't help but do what I'd done the last couple of times I was there - walk around and remember when rides, games and food booths seemed to be everywhere, the Alpine Way moved above, if we got separated we would meet at the Bulova tower and we could hear the concerts at night from the Grandstand. I'm not of the Canada's Wonderland generation, I just missed it (I really don't like roller coasters anyway) so the CNE is where my memories as a kid and teenager are firmly anchored, and I miss the way it used to be a lot. Now there's not even an Ontario Place to spend a few hours at anymore.

I agree 100%. The CNE has been cheapened to death, much like Ontario Place. Many of the great buildings have been leased by private corporations (just like the pods at Ontario Place was leased by Atlantis) Is it a coincidence that both the CNE and Ontario Place have gone this route and both have had a loss of attendance? I don't think so.

The CNE gives far too much building space for their vendor's markets. It wasn't always like that. Those same buildings used to house displays and show/entertainment.

Both The CNE & Ontario Place will blame the internet or Canada's Wonderland for their falling attendance figures but I believe it's the politicians and board members who are responsible for the decline. You can clearly see that upgrading the parks and making them better is not their agenda. Privatizing and quick profit making is their short sighted goal and look where that got them?

If you give people quality attractions at a fair price, they will come.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

If you give people quality attractions at a fair price, they will come.

Re: last time at the CNE, we had no plans to go but I'm pretty sure at that point in time to enter Ontario Place a second admission had to be paid, then some attractions at Ontario Place required that you pay yet again, that's nuts! I don't remember exactly how much, but I think it was around $16 (adult price) just to get into the CNE grounds. It was a total rip.
I love fireworks and I enjoy the airshow too so I cycle over to just west of Ontario Place at the waters edge & enjoy the fireworks competition (cancelled now that Ontario Place is closed) and then a little further west to watch the airshow without the sun in my eyes - for free.

 

[Peepers]

Interesting article in the STAR today. They uncovered secret documents that showed that Ontario Place in its final year of operation was staging a huge turnaround with attendance up 89% and recording its biggest single day attendance in its history.

This is completely opposite to the doom and gloom picture painted by the corrupt McGuinty government!

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edit...documents-tell-a-story-of-success-not-failure

In my opinion, Ontario Place will be just another Ornge, "Green Energy" (Greed Energy), e-health scam, i.e. just another opportunity for Dalton and his cronies to line their pockets with money stolen from the taxpayers of Ontario. Of course for good measure McGuinty will be sure to let some well connected Conservatives in on the action (as was done with Ornge). I suspect John Tory stands to profit somehow from a sell-off of Ontario Place.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Many good points are raised in the article but it fails to acknowledge that there were no admission charges to get into the park in 2011 so of course revenues from rides, Cinesphere, the water park, concessions etc. (all charged on a "pay per play" basis) plus parking would be up dramatically over previous years, along with attendance figures.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Peepers:

How does shutting down a money losing government venture equate to stealing money from taxpayers? And sorry, rosy projections of attendance have a tendency NOT to pan out. I thought you of all people would be most supportive of devoluting non-core government functions to the private sector?

AoD

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Peepers:

How does shutting down a money losing government venture equate to stealing money from taxpayers? And sorry, rosy projections of attendance have a tendency NOT to pan out. I thought you of all people would be most supportive of devoluting non-core government functions to the private sector?

AoD

Not responding on Peepers' behalf here, but after reading the article there's a plausible case to be made that OP may have already been on the road to profitability. If that turns out to have been true, then by extension one could argue that the government is failing to get value for taxpayers by (1) selling an asset that is on the cusp of profitability, and (2) advertising to potential buyers that the asset's financial performance is worse than it actually is. The argument is even more compelling if, for example, it is true that OP just invested $10mm in public funds to rebuild the waterpark and the financial benefit of that investment will accrue to a private party who bought the renewed infrastructure at a fire-sale price.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Many good points are raised in the article but it fails to acknowledge that there were no admission charges to get into the park in 2011 so of course revenues from rides, Cinesphere, the water park, concessions etc. (all charged on a "pay per play" basis) plus parking would be up dramatically over previous years, along with attendance figures.

Doesn't the article state that revenues from all sources (i.e. rides, Cinesphere, the water park, concessions and admission) were up? If so, then wouldn't it be fair to compare the 2010 and 2011 financial performance? Essentially, it sounds like OP's change to "pay per play" in 2011 resulted in greatly improved financial performance, and yet the government has chosen, for some reason, to ignore that change for the purposes of framing the narrative of the OP sale. Obviously there's more to the story, but there does seem to be some cause to want to look closer at what's happening here.

 

[Torontovibe]

Interesting article in the STAR today. They uncovered secret documents that showed that Ontario Place in its final year of operation was staging a huge turnaround with attendance up 89% and recording its biggest single day attendance in its history.

This is completely opposite to the doom and gloom picture painted by the corrupt McGuinty government!

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edit...documents-tell-a-story-of-success-not-failure

In my opinion, Ontario Place will be just another Ornge, "Green Energy" (Greed Energy), e-health scam, i.e. just another opportunity for Dalton and his cronies to line their pockets with money stolen from the taxpayers of Ontario. Of course for good measure McGuinty will be sure to let some well connected Conservatives in on the action (as was done with Ornge). I suspect John Tory stands to profit somehow from a sell-off of Ontario Place.

Reading this made me very mad. I hate to be lied to by our governments and when they try to mislead us, and hide the facts, I can't help but get pissed. I knew when they first started coming out with the doom and gloom reports about Ontario Place, that it was BS. I just wonder why is McGuinty doing it? What does he hope to gain from closing OP? He won't be gaining my vote, I can tell you that.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Doesn't the article state that revenues from all sources (i.e. rides, Cinesphere, the water park, concessions and admission) were up? If so, then wouldn't it be fair to compare the 2010 and 2011 financial performance? Essentially, it sounds like OP's change to "pay per play" in 2011 resulted in greatly improved financial performance, and yet the government has chosen, for some reason, to ignore that change for the purposes of framing the narrative of the OP sale. Obviously there's more to the story, but there does seem to be some cause to want to look closer at what's happening here.

That's why I clarified that admissions were not charged during the 2011 season, it's a research error or a false revenue stream reported that didn't exist that year. It's still fair to compare the two years, after all it's about the bottom line of either turning a profit or minimizing losses which they were possibly on track to do.
The Toronto Star story raises some troubling questions, it clearly needs to be investigated further.

 

[Peepers]

Peepers:

How does shutting down a money losing government venture equate to stealing money from taxpayers? And sorry, rosy projections of attendance have a tendency NOT to pan out. I thought you of all people would be most supportive of devoluting non-core government functions to the private sector?

AoD

The stealing of money from the taxpayer will not come from simply shutting down a money losing venture - the theft comes from the eventual self-offs or public-private partnerships (3 P's) which are usually nothing but a guise for looting the public purse. The McGuinty government can be very creative when it comes to shoveling public funds to their cronies as we have seen with Ornge and the Green Energy scams (e.g. the current President of the Liberal Party of Canada received a $475 Million 20 year Green Energy contract when he was President of the Liberal Party of Ontario! This despite the fact he had zero experience in the power industry, probably doesn't even know how to screw in a light bulb!).

As for devoluting non-core government functions to the private sector - I view Ontario Place as a public park and we don't expect public parks to make a profit. If they can break even - as OP was expected to do in a few years that is great. The province should have removed the general admission price to the park years ago and generate revenues through special attractions.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

That's why I clarified that admissions were not charged during the 2011 season, it's a research error or a false revenue stream reported that didn't exist that year. It's still fair to compare the two years, after all it's about the bottom line of either turning a profit or minimizing losses which they were possibly on track to do.
The Toronto Star story raises some troubling questions, it clearly needs to be investigated further.

revenues from rides, ground admissions, concessions and retail sales and Cinesphere tickets also increased dramatically last year

I take your point. It's hard to know why the Star seems to have glossed over the fact that there would not have been any "ground admissions revenue" in 2011. TBH, I read the Star story to be saying that OP's aggregate revenue increased, not that there was an increase in each discrete segment. I think aggregate revenue is the only measure by which the two years can be sensibly compared, given the change from "pay one price" to "pay per play".

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

The stealing of money from the taxpayer will not come from simply shutting down a money losing venture - the theft comes from the eventual self-offs or public-private partnerships (3 P's) which are usually nothing but a guise for looting the public purse. The McGuinty government can be very creative when it comes to shoveling public funds to their cronies as we have seen with Ornge and the Green Energy scams (e.g. the current President of the Liberal Party of Canada received a $475 Million 20 year Green Energy contract when he was President of the Liberal Party of Ontario! This despite the fact he had zero experience in the power industry, probably doesn't even know how to screw in a light bulb!).

I generally agree with your distrust of boondoggles and suspicion about who tends to benefit from them disproportionately, but I think you may be wrong about Mike Crawley's credentials in the energy sector. Yes, he may be a political hack, but the timelines you set out don't jive with my recollection that he was with AIM Powergen when it started in 2001 and AIM Powergen was bought by IPC in 2009. When did AIM get awarded a $475mm contract?

Again, I think you're likely more correct than incorrect in the substance of your accusations. Given my bias, I would hope the substance of your allegations isn't disregarded because of flaws in its formulation.

 

[Peepers]

I generally agree with your distrust of boondoggles and suspicion about who tends to benefit from them disproportionately, but I think you may be wrong about Mike Crawley's credentials in the energy sector. Yes, he may be a political hack, but the timelines you set out don't jive with my recollection that he was with AIM Powergen when it started in 2001 and AIM Powergen was bought by IPC in 2009. When did AIM get awarded a $475mm contract?

Again, I think you're likely more correct than incorrect in the substance of your accusations. Given my bias, I would hope the substance of your allegations isn't disregarded because of flaws in its formulation.

I based this on comments made by Bob Runciman in 2004 taken from the Queens Park hansard http://protectibas.ca/?p=333

"The facts are that Mike Crawley is a former top assistant to former Liberal leader Lyn McLeod. He is the current Ontario president of the Liberal Party of Canada. He’s an influential Liberal insider, and that’s made clear by the fact that he was featured in this session on the need for renewable energy at your own policy conference. Now he’s the recipient of a $24-million-a-year contract for 20 years, and that’s a contract for a modest amount of renewable energy."

I may be off on the timeline, i.e. he may have been awarded the contract before being elected Ontario Liberal Party president but clearly he was a Liberal big-wig at the time.