Toronto/Montreal comparisons (ain't pretty...)

[OttoSchloss]

Honestly, I don't begrudge people not wanting to use English in a province that is predominately if not officially French speaking. I don't see many francophone Quebeckers coming to Toronto and expecting to get service in French.

 

[OttoSchloss]

Ontario is so far behind Quebec when it comes to sexuality, though. In my experience girls from Quebec are a blast, whereas the majority of girls who grew up in Ontario are generally frightened by the idea of sex. I swear people in this province (and most of North America and Asia) think you can get pregnant with a kiss.

Yes and no. You can get away with a lot more in Toronto than Montreal, sex wise. But there's a weird bourgeois thing in Toronto which doesn't celebrate sex so it just ends up seeming dirty.

 

[PUTOTO]

When I moved to Montreal, I went to the Mount Royal library one afternoon. (Mount Royal is an artsy part of the east downtown core) The library was pretty busy and there were 5 people working near the main desk area. I asked the woman serving customers, in French, if she spoke English. She said NO! I asked the guy beside her, if he spoke English. Again, I got the same response, NO! I asked again, "not even a little?" NO, he replied. So I asked loudly but politely, "is there anybody working here who speaks English" and nobody said a word to me. They just all looked away. I thought is it possible that nobody (university educated) working at a downtown library, speaks a bit of English?

A stranger in the library, heard me and came over to help me but nobody working in the library, would lift a finger to help me. The funny thing is, months later I was at that same library, and the guy who works there, who told me he speaks no English, was talking on the phone. Guess what language he was talking? PERFECT ENGLISH! I was pissed and should have said something but I didn't. These people are paid to serve the public, not play politics.

This kind of thing happens every now and then but most Montrealers are cool with Anglophones. They really do try to be helpful and nice but there is always this us and them, kind of vibe. Lots of Anglo stereotypes still remain. They call the English "Square Heads" lol, and I think they really believe that. (meaning the English are boring and closed minded) I always said the French were hard-headed and stubborn as hell. (well, at least the ones I was friends with, including my sweet but hard-headed French boyfriend)

It's best to stay clear of politics, language and saying your from Toronto, when talking with French Canadians. Even the ones who have never been here, told me they hated Toronto. Yep, they were NEVER in Toronto, yet they knew exactly what it was like. I was told a number of times, Toronto is so prudish, "the strippers can't even take off their G-strings". When I told them, that wasn't true, they'd say, "well that's what I heard" and keep arguing. It's like banging your head against a wall. After a while, you just give in and say very little.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Quebecers and their hard heads.

I guess Canada has to choose one.
A) Arguments and confusion lasting forever in the fake(never-complete) peace.
B) Suffering(?) of 1 ~1.5 generations (20~40 years) and happy ever after in truthful unity and harmony.

Make no mistake, I'm not just talking secretly to English speaking Canada. I'm talking to all of Canada including Quebec.

The Japanese never have to worry about not being able to fully communicate or be understood in the prefecture of Okinawa (former Kingdom of Ryukyu which spoke Okinawan). No one in the US worries about not being able to do business or fully enjoy living in Florida, California, or New Mexico because of the language.
Even Chinese who demonstrates on the streets of Scarborough and Manhattan for freedom and democracy admits there was one thing the notorious Chairman Mao, father of the dark era, did well for China. Making China truly united. No Chinese has to worry about the language in their country. China originally was full of directs which were like totally different languages except they were all written in the Chinese letters. Mandarin used to be just a regional language in northern China, but now it's the only national language that people all across the nation are happy with, very proud of, and united within.

If the same thing, which is proven to be working, happens to Canada, the French people might be suffering and humiliated(?) for not being able to speak English very well. That can't be helped, and I'm sure will be understood. But after a short period of time, almost 99% of people of French descent will have no problem speaking English perfectly and won't even know why "the *&^@ language!" has to be an issue in this country. It's just like what's happening to new immigrants and their children in Toronto.

I believe in diversity not assimilation. I would want to preserve as much "French" as possible in the province of Quebec, but except for the language. It's only because I love Canada, and I love Quebec from the bottom of my heart.

 

[RC8]

Yes and no. You can get away with a lot more in Toronto than Montreal, sex wise. But there's a weird bourgeois thing in Toronto which doesn't celebrate sex so it just ends up seeming dirty.

I don't know, you can get away with one night stands and such here, but having a loving friend with benefits is very rare here. Not so much in the latin world. Here if a girl's good guy friend makes a move on her he is either 'raping her' (or so she would claim) or entering a committed relationship.

But hey, mixing British, American, and Asian values was hardly going to lead to a sensual romantic culture hahah

 

[Torontovibe]

I guess Canada has to choose one.
A) Arguments and confusion lasting forever in the fake(never-complete) peace.
B) Suffering(?) of 1 ~1.5 generations (20~40 years) and happy ever after in truthful unity and harmony.

Make no mistake, I'm not just talking secretly to English speaking Canada. I'm talking to all of Canada including Quebec.

The Japanese never have to worry about not being able to fully communicate or be understood in the prefecture of Okinawa (former Kingdom of Ryukyu which spoke Okinawan). No one in the US worries about not being able to do business or fully enjoy living in Florida, California, or New Mexico because of the language.
Even Chinese who demonstrates on the streets of Scarborough and Manhattan for freedom and democracy admits there was one thing the notorious Chairman Mao, father of the dark era, did well for China. Making China truly united. No Chinese has to worry about the language in their country. China originally was full of directs which were like totally different languages except they were all written in the Chinese letters. Mandarin used to be just a regional language in northern China, but now it's the only national language that people all across the nation are happy with, very proud of, and united within.

If the same thing, which is proven to be working, happens to Canada, the French people might be suffering and humiliated(?) for not being able to speak English very well. That can't be helped, and I'm sure will be understood. But after a short period of time, almost 99% of people of French descent will have no problem speaking English perfectly and won't even know why "the *&^@ language!" has to be an issue in this country. It's just like what's happening to new immigrants and their children in Toronto.

I believe in diversity not assimilation. I would want to preserve as much "French" as possible in the province of Quebec, but except for the language. It's only because I love Canada, and I love Quebec from the bottom of my heart.

We don't need to choose one over the other. It works fine the way it is now. I would hate to see Quebecers all become Anglophones. What a crazy thing to say.

VIVE LE QUEBEC, MAIS PAS LIBRE!

 

[toraerach]

Even Chinese who demonstrates on the streets of Scarborough and Manhattan for freedom and democracy admits there was one thing the notorious Chairman Mao, father of the dark era, did well for China. Making China truly united. No Chinese has to worry about the language in their country. China originally was full of directs which were like totally different languages except they were all written in the Chinese letters. Mandarin used to be just a regional language in northern China, but now it's the only national language that people all across the nation are happy with, very proud of, and united within.

I know some Tibetans who would think differently.

If the same thing, which is proven to be working, happens to Canada, the French people might be suffering and humiliated(?) for not being able to speak English very well. That can't be helped, and I'm sure will be understood. But after a short period of time, almost 99% of people of French descent will have no problem speaking English perfectly and won't even know why "the *&^@ language!" has to be an issue in this country. It's just like what's happening to new immigrants and their children in Toronto.

I believe in diversity not assimilation. I would want to preserve as much "French" as possible in the province of Quebec, but except for the language. It's only because I love Canada, and I love Quebec from the bottom of my heart.

There is a huge difference between a Francophone in Quebec and an immigrant in Toronto. French is the sole official language of Quebec. It has a long and very proud history of resisting assimilation in that province. The onus should not fall on Quebec to learn and use English when dealing with Anglophone Canadians - for the sake of national unity, we should all attempt to learn both official languages. Language politics in Canada are very different than those in the US or China. In many ways, we are more similar to Belgium or even India. If we claim to be a bilingual nation, we cannot preference any one language over the other. Even the bilingual model itself masks a more complicated linguistic politics in this country - what with the official status of several Aboriginal languages in the North and in First Nations' governments, and with limited recognition of non-official, non-Aboriginal languages in parts of the country (Nova Scotia, for example, has a Minister of Gaelic Affairs and is attempting, if somewhat half-heartedly, to preserve and revive that language in the province).

 

[tkip]

Speaking to the topic of people in Quebec and Montreal automatically hating Toronto.

The same woman I knew from Quebec, who was a francophone, told me that while growing up she was told by all her elders that the rest of Canada hated Quebec and that Toronto was a horrible city full of french hating anglos. When she actually began dating a man from Toronto and started seeing him here, she realized that her experiences didn't match what she had been "taught".

She actually enjoyed the city and not once came across anti-french/Quebec sentiment here and in fact, no one ever talked about these issues. Or rarely.

The shit hit the fan when she announced plans to move to Toronto. Her family, mostly the older relatives, considered this an act of betrayal and couldn't understand why she would want to do this. She moved anyway. She was very open about how she thought Toronto was a great city and in her opinion, superior to Montreal.

She admitted over drinks one night that she had been lied to by her relatives and what she was taught was pure propaganda.

 

[tkip]

I went to Montreal a few years back. I was actually underwhelmed by the city. Expected something much more than what I saw. Streets were in bad shape and yes, some of the people were rude to me when I spoke english. I was lucky though compared to others I've known over the years who were outright ignored and treated badly. There's no excuse.

 

[PUTOTO]

1. Linguistic diversity is a wonderful and surely "enjoyable" thing. But what if people of this country basically can't even communicate with other people of the country? How many people on the streets in Toronto or Vancouver do you think can speak French? not to mention that we have a lot of immigrants coming over to Canada, who already spent tremendous amount of time for 1 or 2 languages before English or French?
One day I was trying to get to the observatory in Parc du Mont Royal, and two white French speaking women I met didn't even know a single word in English when I was asking for the direction. Were they the kind of immigrants? or French purebloods pretending not to speak English ? Either way, it's horrible. I thought I could communicate with Canadians after many years of my stay in Canada.

2. Remember 1995. Canada was about to become history. The vote result was 49.42% "Yes" to 50.58% "No"!!! If it was 49.42% "No" to 50.58% "Yes", BC might have already joined the US by now, the rest of Canada west of Quebec and east of Quebec would have been in a desperate struggle with the incredibly dynamic map of Canada. It was their second attempt, and I don't see this coming back again in the near or far future. That is what I meant by people getting confused and arguments between them lasting forever (as long as "Canada" exists)

3. I'm not saying French language is useless nor provoking Quebecois by saying your language has to be wiped out for the sake of ours. The preservation of French culture in Quebec is what exactly they want and they can have it if they so desperately want it. But someday if Quebec gets separated from Canada by some leaders of the time in the provincial government, just like the bill 101 was passed without a proble~m, who's going to be responsible for that? It won't be good for people of Quebec either. Just carefully look at the northern coastline of PQ(the Nunavik region). What a total humiliation for them as a nation.

4. Everything has to be done twice. You know what I'm saying.
In terms of economics, 10~30 years of transitional loss, or the double inefficiency for as long as Canada exists.

We don't need to choose one over the other. It works fine the way it is now.

No offense, but you realize that's the option A.

 

[Isaachan01]

hmmmmmm

Honestly, I don't begrudge people not wanting to use English in a province that is predominately if not officially French speaking. I don't see many francophone Quebeckers coming to Toronto and expecting to get service in French.

but the point is they speak english, they act as if they never learned anything about the language they could realistically help tourists out. Tourism in quebec i'm sure ranks high among in provinces GDP.

 

[Tewder]

To put it bluntly it simply boils down to resentment and jealousy. French Canadians have been on the losing trajectory of history since the arrival of Wolfe and never has it changed. The rise of Toronto is simply salt in the wound.

 

[urbandreamer]

To put it even more bluntly--Quebec has never been part of Canada other than in the minds of the British Crown and Ottawa.

 

[tkip]

To put it even more bluntly, Quebec is a bunch of cry babies.

 

[taal]

This has really digressed from a Toronto / Montreal comparison / discussion - which frankly I don't mind As really it's a pointless and whomever started this thread should have known better ... though there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism these never end well.

Moreover, the points brought up are always the same in these threads:
1) State of the public realm downtown i.e. sidewalks / lights / ...
2) Architecture.
3) Public spaces / parks / museums
4) Special mention to waterfront
5) Transit.

Generally it starts with a couple rounds of Toronto bashing (rightfully or wrongfully) until someone seemingly takes offense and rants about how said city sucks compared to Toronto for reasons 6+ not mentioned above. I usually come in at some point arguing on many (but not all) of the points 1 through 5 above Toronto does indeed seem to lag behind other cities yet we somehow still manage to be more vibrant / livable then *most* ...

The point is, what's the point of all this, there really isn't one.

Honestly I'd rather someone start a what's wrong with Toronto thread, we already have a what can you change about Toronto thread ... maybe make use of that.

 

[Tewder]

^ Must be a French Canadian cry-baby!