skyhook19
New Member
Did Hazel decide this? I seem to recall her mentioning in an interview that the decision to make the MCC around square one was before her time as mayor?
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Did Hazel decide this? I seem to recall her mentioning in an interview that the decision to make the MCC around square one was before her time as mayor?
ShonTron
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That is true to some degree. The Town of Mississauga, which predates Hazel (who was reeve of Streetsville at the time) moved their town offices from Dundas Street West in Cooksville (the building, later used by Sheridan College, was demolished a few years ago) to a new building on Robert Speck at Hurontario, adjacent to the new mall under construction. Since then the city eventually embraced the idea, in for a penny, in for a pound, - the new Civic Centre in the late 1980s, the high rise construction, the Transitway plans. In the mid 1980s, it was still possible to go focus back on Cooksville if the city wanted to. The decision to build the civic centre there cemented MCC as we now know it.
Keep in mind too that the Milton GO service only started in 1981 - almost no one was thinking of the time it could have been the focus of a transit system.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Some dates that might help with your discussion.
1971 - Township of Mississauga moves its civic offices to 1 City Centre Drive in the Hurontario & Burnamthorpe area
1973 - Construction of SQ 1 is completed and it opens for business
1974 - Township of Mississauga annexes Port Credit and Streetsville and becomes a City
1977 - Plans for the Mississauga portion of the 403 are approved and construction commences
1978 - Hazel McCallion elected as the City of Mississauga's 3rd mayor.
1987 - Mississauga opens its new Civic Centre
One thing is for sure, it was not Ms McCallion's doing that Mississauga (before it was even a city) initially chose what is now MCC as its civic office location. Could she and her council moved from there in 1987 (or any time between '78 and '87)? Possibly....but they didn't.
As for whether MCC is where it is because of the 403? Well, again, the choice was made 6 years before construction started on the 403....sure the road had been discussed/planned for a long time before that but the route changed often and I think you could make just as strong an argument that the final route was influenced by a desire to bring it through MCC as you could that MCC was there because of the planned road.
Interesting discussion....but, IMO, one that has no real answer.
salsa
Senior Member
Actually what I meant was the city overall was quite poorly planned under Hazel, if you ask any urban planner.
Transportfan
Senior Member
In a major urban conurbation like the GTA, planned major nodes should be arranged along corridors that offer the best interconnectivity with the transit facilities of neighboring municipalities. Burnhamthorpe certainly isn't such a street, and it was shortsighted to choose it as the location of MCC.
Are you trying to get me worked up or something? I know what you usually call it.
accura407
Car is King
I have to disagree with all this talk of Mississauga screwing up the location of MCC!
Let's take a look at a city that did exactly what your all suggesting...Brampton
Bramalea initially built out a city centre that is identical to Square One. It is known as Bramalea City Centre! It's basically the same thing - near highway and major roads and major mall etc.
Once these two cities merged together, in the early 1990s, Brampton made a bold move to shift its downtown focus away from this greenfield downtown into the historical transit friendly Main/Queen node, which is what we today call, "Downtown Brampton" - I think we can all agree that this node is basically the same thing as Hurontario/Dundas - high density, old, and blocks away from a GO Station.
Let's look at the outcome today:
Mississauga City Centre is a thriving node with well planned downtown that has attracted many awesome high rises, including the world famous Absolute World towers.
Brampton Downtown is just a historical feel good node that has attracted a total of 2 luxury condos and 1 apartment rental building. Granted, they have done well with the Rose Theatre, but still...I think Downtown Brampton is a total fail.
If Brampton had built out Bramalea City Centre as its downtown, I think it would have been far more successful. You would be approaching a mega city when you drive up the 410 towards Queen...instead its just a collection of 1970s towers. FAIL.
Similarily, if Missisauga had been short sighted (like Brampton) to just make Dundas/Hurontario its downtown and skip the planned greenfield MCC site, I highly doubt we would be looking at the downtown we have today.
Mississauga's skyline rivals or is better than MANY MANY US cities of far bigger size. There is still lots of land left for increased density. The road grid is being improved to become more like a downtown. It has the best shot of competing with Toronto as a second downtown. Why? Highway access is nearby to get people from all over the region into this important node!
And let's not deny the fact that, one of the reasons North York City Centre became successful is also its close proximity to the 401. I honestly find it hilarious when people live in a dream world and think that proximity to major auto transportation corridors has no advantage whatsoever to the growth of a city center! People may mention Vancouver, but in the end the city core just became a dense residential center while major companies move their HQ to cities like Calgary.
Is transit important? For sure! It is vital. But is car access also important? Yes. Balance is the key to success. Toronto downtown wouldn't be as huge without proper transit AND road access (DVP/Gardiner).
Let's take a look at a city that did exactly what your all suggesting...Brampton
Bramalea initially built out a city centre that is identical to Square One. It is known as Bramalea City Centre! It's basically the same thing - near highway and major roads and major mall etc.
Once these two cities merged together, in the early 1990s, Brampton made a bold move to shift its downtown focus away from this greenfield downtown into the historical transit friendly Main/Queen node, which is what we today call, "Downtown Brampton" - I think we can all agree that this node is basically the same thing as Hurontario/Dundas - high density, old, and blocks away from a GO Station.
Let's look at the outcome today:
Mississauga City Centre is a thriving node with well planned downtown that has attracted many awesome high rises, including the world famous Absolute World towers.
Brampton Downtown is just a historical feel good node that has attracted a total of 2 luxury condos and 1 apartment rental building. Granted, they have done well with the Rose Theatre, but still...I think Downtown Brampton is a total fail.
If Brampton had built out Bramalea City Centre as its downtown, I think it would have been far more successful. You would be approaching a mega city when you drive up the 410 towards Queen...instead its just a collection of 1970s towers. FAIL.
Similarily, if Missisauga had been short sighted (like Brampton) to just make Dundas/Hurontario its downtown and skip the planned greenfield MCC site, I highly doubt we would be looking at the downtown we have today.
Mississauga's skyline rivals or is better than MANY MANY US cities of far bigger size. There is still lots of land left for increased density. The road grid is being improved to become more like a downtown. It has the best shot of competing with Toronto as a second downtown. Why? Highway access is nearby to get people from all over the region into this important node!
And let's not deny the fact that, one of the reasons North York City Centre became successful is also its close proximity to the 401. I honestly find it hilarious when people live in a dream world and think that proximity to major auto transportation corridors has no advantage whatsoever to the growth of a city center! People may mention Vancouver, but in the end the city core just became a dense residential center while major companies move their HQ to cities like Calgary.
Is transit important? For sure! It is vital. But is car access also important? Yes. Balance is the key to success. Toronto downtown wouldn't be as huge without proper transit AND road access (DVP/Gardiner).
DKsan
Active Member
The problem with comparing Brampton to Hurontario/Dundas is that while I don't know the status of the latter, but the former has been less built up because of all the huge swathes of the DT area that is covered under heritage protection. There's very few chunks of that downtown that can be redeveloped into huge towers.
ShonTron
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And Brampton historically hasn't been as popular or desirable as Mississauga, or as populated. It's not a fair comparison.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Add in things like the historical differences around how the cities were formed. Mississauga was already based at what is now MCC before they were a city......Brampton and Bramalea were much closer to being a "merger of equals" that needed to pick between one or the other location. The notion that the 410 is dramatically closer to Bramalea City Centre than the "4 corners" is just off as well.......one is 2.7km away and the other 2.1km away.
Aside from market influences (which you note) making condo development much riskier/more difficult in Brampton than Mississauga, there is the whole issue around the flood mitigation matters that the City/Province/CVCA can't come to grips with.
It is a very, very, tough comparison to make and I am not sure of the value of it. Would Mississauga's "core" look like Brampton's core if they had built their civic presence at Dundas rather than Burnamthorpe? I doubt it...but then again, I don't see much value in the comparison.
TFC
Active Member
I didn't know cities without glass condo towers constitute being called "total fails". I think when it comes down to urbanism and being in an urban environment, downtown Brampton takes the cake. Try walking in downtown Mississauga, then try walking in downtown Brampton. Does a skyline trump a walkable, dense, historic downtown? I personally don't think so.
ShonTron
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Yeah, the historical floodplain is a good reason why development is more difficult in Downtown Brampton. Forgot about that.
Brampton has several good historic buildings downtown - the Grand Trunk Station, the old Federal Building the Courthouse/Jail/Registry building, a dozen or two outstanding Victorian and Edwardian houses and churches and a fully preserved early 20th century factory (the other whose front and facade are to be preserved following successful redevelopment). Plus a great downtown park whose skating path is being replicated elsewhere. Downtown Brampton itself isn't lively (it needs more residents, plus more things to do), but it's far ahead of what it was ten years ago. I wouldn't have thought Starbucks would do well - and that Coffee Culture across the street would also survive. Bonus: Downtown Brampton has Batman at night.
What historic stock does Cooksville have? It was a much smaller community but there's nothing left of note these days. It's little more than a busy intersection surrounded by plazas. Nobody would miss any of it it if it turned into Yonge Street in North York.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
Agree...but the comparison to Cooksville now....same difficutly as we can't (possibly) know what Cooksville would be today if Mississauga was "based" there....it is impossbile to determine.
Without comparing it to anywhere else (which, again, I find frutless and impossible) DT Brampton is just a powderkeg of unfulfilled potential....but the spark to light that has so many sources that have to come together it will likely languish for quite some time. It may/can happen but it is not going to be an overnight thing.
Now, if i was someone who clicked into this thread to read/discuss about the Mississauga Transitway I cerntainly would be wondering about the direction we have taken this thread!
salsa
Senior Member
accura407
Car is King
Just to clarify, when I mean total FAIL - It depends on the context of what the city is trying to achieve.
Mississauga is trying to achieve a downtown that is large in scale and competitive with a big city. I believe Brampton has similar desires. So does Hamilton. And Vaughan...
Places like Oakville and Burlington have always aimed for a small scale "main street" type of node - With that goal in mind, they have been very successful.
Mississauga has been successful as well - Streetsville is an excellent small scale "main street" node as well.
If Brampton's goal all along was to build up a node similar to Oakville or Burlington, then they have succeeded. But I am sure they were aiming for more...and therefore it is a FAIL.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Brampton's goal was always to encourage development and intensification within the downtown without disturbing it's historic charm....the second part is very important to them.
What has failed in Brampton is the goal of spurring the type of development I think you are seeing in MCC along the Queen Street corridor between, say, the 4 corners and the 410. When the car dealerships started moving out in the early/mid 80s they were supposed to be replaced by a mix of high and medium density residential and commercial uses lining the streets. The image of the NYCC corridor was evoked. Tax and other incentives were created to spur the change over.
That, I would agree, has been an large failure. Mostly market forces (IMO) but with the exception of a few buildings, nothing has materialized and the site of the former Don Robertson Chrysler (northeast corner of Rutherford and Queen) sits empty to this day as a monument to this (it was the first of the dealerships to uproot for the Brampton Auto Mall).