Toronto Maple Leaf Square | 185.92m | 54s | Lanterra | KPMB

Translude15 said:
Sorry to go completely off topic here, but I need to call you out.

The perpetual jabs at the Leafs are getting old. Yes they haven't made the playoffs since 2004. Yes they haven't made the finals, or won the Cup since 1967. But including the Cup year in 1967 and up until the 2003-04 season (38 seasons), the Leafs missed the playoffs 11 times. In other words, they made the playoffs 27 out of 38 seasons. 5 times (1978, 1993, 1994, 1999 and 2002) the Leafs were a playoff series win away from the finals. Not to mention the solid teams of the early 2000s which had the potential for deep playoff runs every year. If they had won even just one cup out of those 5 years, people would be singing a far different tune.

That said, I fail to see a trend of perpetual losing, in spite of a nagging 43 year Cup drought. Circumstance, bad luck and other factors have kept the Leafs' Cup dreams under wraps. It's not like this team has been a consistent basement dweller since 1967. They've been close, but to no avail. People tend to forget previous Cup droughts in New York, Detroit and Chicago, which only just ended recently, were all longer than the current Leaf drought. Championship droughts are meant to end, and historically, long ones have ended. The Leafs will win the Cup again, whether it be in 5 years, or another 15.

As for you "jetsbackincanada", your screen name is laughable. The Jets aren't coming back, nor will the NHL ever step foot back in Winnipeg, Quebec City or even Hamilton, so long as current trends of American dominance over this country continue. Quit hanging on to your blind, Canadiana sentiments. The NHL is a business, not a cultural development agency. Money is what drives the NHL's agenda and it's far too late for the league to backtrack to "old time hockey" and reverting to markets that may be hockey mad, but are simply economically unsustainable for revenues.

The game has turned a corner towards its inevitable Americanization. More and more Americans are playing our game, and in time, Americans will outnumber and outperform Canadians. As evidenced in the last few years, more elite players are developing in "non-traditional" markets. (California, Florida, Texas etc.) Just give it 50 years and you'll see how vastly different hockey's culture will be.
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Hockey will NEVER be Americanized.....I live here in MINNESOTA, and it's still a distant fourth in terms of interest , TV ratings, and fan loyalty. (The Stars are in Dallas after all) You need to relax man, these people don't care about hockey, they don't watch the juniours, college, or even International hockey. Except when they play Canada in the Olympics, and they all want to beat us SOOOOOO bad, but GOD LOVES CANADA....Sorry man, Crosby shoooots........even if they won, it would matter, till their collective hangover wore off and football came back on.
Last if you think hockey is never coming back to Canada, you are wrong, Atlanta dont care, Carolina dont care, Phoenix dont care. THERE IS NO BIG NETWORK CONTRACT COMING FOR THE NHL HERE. So embracing regional support will be how they survive. The ratings in Canada, will make that a serious option for some owners in the near future. You can't even see the game (NHL) here, just Local Wild games , and some impossible to find network??(Versus)
 
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Translude15 said:
Sorry to go completely off topic here, but I need to call you out.

As for you "jetsbackincanada", your screen name is laughable. The Jets aren't coming back, nor will the NHL ever step foot back in Winnipeg, Quebec City or even Hamilton, so long as current trends of American dominance over this country continue. Quit hanging on to your blind, Canadiana sentiments. The NHL is a business, not a cultural development agency. Money is what drives the NHL's agenda and it's far too late for the league to backtrack to "old time hockey" and reverting to markets that may be hockey mad, but are simply economically unsustainable for revenues.

The game has turned a corner towards its inevitable Americanization. More and more Americans are playing our game, and in time, Americans will outnumber and outperform Canadians. As evidenced in the last few years, more elite players are developing in "non-traditional" markets. (California, Florida, Texas etc.) Just give it 50 years and you'll see how vastly different hockey's culture will be.
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I don't think this is the place to debate it but I would definitely argue that a team will be in Winnipeg in the near future. I can go into why I think you're wrong there, and why it looks like a team in Winnipeg is very probable, but I think we'd distract from the thread. I'd also disagree that Americans will outnumber and outperform Canadians, but 50 years is so far down the line that it'd be impossible to predict either side with any sort of accuracy. 50 years ago it was 1960, so I'd hate to try to predict 50 years of the future baased on everything that happened in the last 50 years. I'd be interested in discussing both further, but maybe not here?

jetsbackincanada said:
Hockey will NEVER be Americanized.....I live here in MINNESOTA, and it's still a distant fourth in terms of interest , TV ratings, and fan loyalty. (The Stars are in Dallas after all) You need to relax man, these people don't care about hockey, they don't watch the juniours, college, or even International hockey. Except when they play Canada in the Olympics, and they all want to beat us SOOOOOO bad, but GOD LOVES CANADA....Sorry man, Crosby shoooots........even if they won, it would matter, till their collective hangover wore off and football came back on.
Last if you think hockey is never coming back to Canada, you are wrong, Atlanta dont care, Carolina dont care, Phoenix dont care. THERE IS NO BIG NETWORK CONTRACT COMING FOR THE NHL HERE. So embracing regional support will be how they survive. The ratings in Canada, will make that a serious option for some owners in the near future. You can't even see the game here, Local Wild games , and some impossible to find network??
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Minnesota is rabid about hockey. Hockey is the state's most popular sport easily. They sell out the Wild's arena for the State high school hockey championships! The Gophers have huge support. And I'm very certain you're wrong about the Wild not being on Local TV. Also, Dallas didn't move because of lack of fan support, I am a Dallas fan since their Minnesota days and so I know and understand the situation there. Anyways, as I said to Translude, this isn't the place really to debate this stuff.
 
The US won the WJC last year on Canadian turf. They came one goal shy of doing the same thing in Vancouver. I don't know about you, but these developments aren't just a coincidence, but rather, evidence of increased American participation and better player development. They have the sheer numbers population wise to dominate in every other sport, and in due course, the US will become a hockey superpower on par with Canada. Maybe even a bit better. Sure, the NHL is regionalized now, and may not ever be as popular as football, but with a population base of 300 million and growing, it's not practical to think Canada will retain its hockey superiority over the States forever.

As for your argument about hockey in Minnesota:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/2009_MN_Boys_Hockey_State_Championship.jpg

That's 19,000 souls packed into the X-Cel Energy Center for a high school championship hockey game. As the article says, high school hockey is the most popular sport in the state. I don't know what you're smoking, but your claims are flawed.
 
Ived lived here for twenty years, the state tourney is popular, but with the town folk who are in it each year, as far as the public, most of the people I am in contact with, could't tell you that the US won that tournament, they couldn't tell you who won it last year, they couldn't tell you the state champ last year, or the Stanley cup winner,.... there are fans, just not close to football.


The Wilds grace period is over, and theyre not selling out this year, the excel arena can't bring em in alone, (a big part of the draw) THEY WOULD RATHER TALK FANTASY FOOTBALL THAN HOCKEY.
I dj five nites a week in big bars, hockey is rarely on. College football/ basketball/....even NFL talk shows. There are fans....but it;s not part of the daily conversation for the majority, unless you win. Even come February, its March Madness, NBA playoffs etc.
The first 5 pages of the Globe n Mail sports are hockey, in JULY!!
In January, the Wild are in page 6. Even the gophers, are a campus thing. Sports center doesnt put much value in hockey so the masses here just do as they are told and watch Duke again. BLLLLEEECCCHHH.
TRUST ME, I KNOW....I'M HERE....I own most every NHL jersey, and i wear them to work..... They dont know who the Whalers are, whats a Nordique?? Let alone the Seals or Barons......:mad: They know Gretzky, but who did he play for again. ???
 
The state is wild about hockey is more legend than fact,... people have painted purple cars here for the vikes. Football is like a cult, with fervor enhanced with cheap beer,
Entire towns of 5,000 do show up for the tourney, but thats so grass roots, big in Elk Mound/ Brainerd etc but not state wide, (if your not in it) Viewership is down, it was much bigger in the 60's-80's) and Wild ratings are abysmal. Vikings wrap up show, will garner a 10 share while the Wild game gets a 1.7, I.m serious.
You can walk the malls/ streets without seeing hockey, idiot Vikings fans are everywhere. By nightfall, they are unable to talk, walking into traffic. Bars are BUSY during any NFL game, hockey may just happen to be on.
No more hockey talk.
 
jetsbackincanada said:
It's crazy how big it looks, and there's so much crazy stuff, to be added to that!
Ice, Signature, Success 2, Delta Bremner, plus Aura will look great in that shot.
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Cant forget the L-Tower...Hey by the time the Signature Tower gets topped off we will have 6-8 buildings already built in the Cityplace/Garrison area, 8-10 buildings in the Liberty Village area, 3-5 potential 60-75 storey towers built or topping off at 120/90 Harbour, also hitting ground level will be Toronto's brand spanking new bus terminal and shiny 57 storey skyscraper at 45 Bay..lol lol :D
 
This video really made me think about the east side of the waterfront. As a displaced Vancouverite/BCer, I must say that the Toronto mentality utterly confounds me. I love this city - most of all for what Vancouver doesn't have, which is a true urban sensibility - but the extent to which Toronto's waterfront has been ignored is unimaginable for me. I am basically a Millerite, but his decision to rebuild another gas fired electricity plant was beyond horrifying to me. I thought the Port Lands area could be an amazing fusion of beautiful industrial architecture re-made into something modern and a Stanley-Park like natural setting - with maybe some housing, but not a tonne. It still has potential, but an electricity plant really torpedoes the who thing for me. All the developments happening on the waterfront are amazing, but have you seen how many roads plow through high park, how many parking lots abut the lake on exhibition place? That it isn't a national issue is beyond me.
 
agoraflaneur said:
This video really made me think about the east side of the waterfront. As a displaced Vancouverite/BCer, I must say that the Toronto mentality utterly confounds me. I love this city - most of all for what Vancouver doesn't have, which is a true urban sensibility - but the extent to which Toronto's waterfront has been ignored is unimaginable for me. I am basically a Millerite, but his decision to rebuild another gas fired electricity plant was beyond horrifying to me. I thought the Port Lands area could be an amazing fusion of beautiful industrial architecture re-made into something modern and a Stanley-Park like natural setting - with maybe some housing, but not a tonne. It still has potential, but an electricity plant really torpedoes the who thing for me. All the developments happening on the waterfront are amazing, but have you seen how many roads plow through high park, how many parking lots abut the lake on exhibition place? That it isn't a national issue is beyond me.
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I believe it was the Province that built the Portlands Enegry Centre, not under the direction of our former Mayor. Toronto's waterfront lacks the old growth tres that Stanley Park has, but there are some very significant plans in place. Check out Waterfront Toronto's website for information and their proposed plans, particularly the West Don Lands, Lower Don Lands, East Bayfront. The Central Waterfront is already improving and will improve more with Canada Square, the slip bridges, and most importantly Queen's Quay revitalization. As for the western waterfront, it's better than the other areas of the waterfront so I am more concerned with east and central sections.

Glad you enjoy this great City, and welcome to UT!
 
I am glad to hear that it wasn't the former Mayor who built that unbelievable powerstation on the waterfront. I guess that detail detracted from my overall point, that it wasn't considered an absolute atrocity to build another, from every perspective, for everyone. Whoever built it, that fact remains. I arrived in 2008, and the Mayor seemed okay with the project at the time, which I did not like. Haven't heard much about it since, so maybe the mayor was against it, I can only hope.

The real point is that there are old growth trees in Vancouver because the people who went there wanted to preserve nature. The new plant is much more of a problem than the lack of old trees. It is a real barrier to the attractiveness of the PortLands from every development perspective except industrial, which, other than interesting new micro-operations that spring from technological development, there is no room for industrial on a waterfront. What was there was there, okay, that happened everywhere, in San Fran and Vancouver as much as Brooklyn or TO. But when it comes time to decommission the power supply in a postindustrial era, they should not be situated on a "world class" waterfront.

And that is the crux. Nobody really cares about downtown Toronto, because they are content in whatever suburb they live in. Downtown is for working. But, it isn't. Other than the ephemeral pleasures of Montreal week-end debauchery and the sparkling images of Vancouver glass reflecting Pacific Mountain trees, Toronto IS Canada to the world. The TO waterfront is Canada's doorstep. But not even Torontonians seem to care: witness the horror of a Rob Ford victory, who does not know what investment is, investment in Toronto and the image of Toronto: does anyone read the Globe and Mail? The front page of the electronic version had a picture of world icons floating ironically in a Cancun artificial pool. The CN tower? No. But the Sydney Opera House? Yes. There is a city that knows how to leverage a waterfront ...

As for the plans you so kindly pointed out, I will be happy if they are carried out. I cannot wait to see the Don River Park. But there isn't enough park space or iconic architecture on the central waterfront ... just some nice condos to walk in front of. I love Sugar beach and its downtown view, but we should force out Redpath and build an icon to Toronto right there. Maybe that will happen in 15-20 when Redpath leaves on its own, but the Chinese and Indians are rising, and the time to brand was Yesterday, today being an alright alternative, tomorrow meaning you missed branding hundreds of millions of new travelers, investors and consumers - not to mention immigrants - with your brand.

I hate branding personally, and it isn't really why I care at all. I just love to walk around cities with interesting things going on, and Toronto has so much opportunity, it is really unbelievable. If they extend the Don River and make the Port Lands into a park, that will be great, amazing even. Yet in the video is the steam rising from the new power plant, which dominates the area and takes away from the beauty of the former powerstation with its wonderful architecture. The bridges will be nice, Canada Square will be nice, but I am waiting to see WHEN. As in, there is only 800m of funding for Queens Quay!!!!!!!!! This is the really sad part ... can't someone count opportunity cost out there? I dislike capitalism, but I dislike even more when it is inefficient (which it almost always is, but hey).

Thanks for the welcome and the dialogue.
 
If it takes the Olympics to make things happen, I think that is pretty pathetic. Don't we want it for ourselves? But, that would have been nice, and I'd have taken it.
 
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