Toronto KING Toronto | 57.6m | 16s | Westbank | Bjarke Ingels Group

Full Metal Junkie · Mar 4, 2020

interchange42 said:
congratulations on my utter disembowelling.

My arguments were not targeted at you, simply disagreeing with the article framing. And my only disagreement with your opinion is that Ingels meeting with Bolsonaro is somehow grounds for his firm being fired from their current projects. Also, not sure how a democratically elected president, who was elected on the promise of doing all the terrible things he's accused of (and fulfilling these promises), can be referred to as 'despotic'. He's only doing what he was elected by his country to do. As much as one might disagree with leaders such as Trump and Bolsonaro, they are not really the source of evil, but merely a symptom of it. So should we boycott the entire country of Brazil now because of the choices their electorate made? And wouldn't it be a responsible corporate behaviour to try to introduce some sustainability with your projects in a country that is so much void of that right now? Or is 'responsible corporate behaviour' to abandon Brazil to it's environment-hating leader?

bilked · Mar 4, 2020

The majority of ‘Starchitecture’ takes place in restricted or controlled economies which, themselves, are much more likely to be found in restrictive, anti-democratic political systems.

This issue obviously isn’t confined to Bjarke Ingles. Most of the other big player international firms with projects in Toronto also work in countries with human rights and environmental records which are as maddening as the Bolsonaro regime’s.

The real question is how to assess the merits of major architectural works which enrich the lives of a country’s citizens, but also serve to legitimate its political elite.

This tension between art and power is ancient and obviously not unique to architecture. However, in the modern secular world, Starchitecture may be its most visible site given the enormous social resources required to construct these buildings.

The question is complex and Bjarke Ingles’ own thinking on the point is nuanced (here is an article with BIG’s full statement, rather than the paraphrase from “Failed Architecture” article: https://www.dezeen.com/2020/01/23/jair-bolsonaro-bjarke-ingels/). Arguably self-serving. But also not irrational and there is no easy remedy or straightforward counterpoint.

ProjectEnd · Mar 4, 2020

Full Metal Junkie said:
My arguments were not targeted at you, simply disagreeing with the article framing. And my only disagreement with your opinion is that Ingels meeting with Bolsonaro is somehow grounds for his firm being fired from their current projects. Also, not sure how a democratically elected president, who was elected on the promise of doing all the terrible things he's accused of (and fulfilling these promises), can be referred to as 'despotic'. He's only doing what he was elected by his country to do. As much as one might disagree with leaders such as Trump and Bolsonaro, they are not really the source of evil, but merely a symptom of it. So should we boycott the entire country of Brazil now because of the choices their electorate made? And wouldn't it be a responsible corporate behaviour to try to introduce some sustainability with your projects in a country that is so much void of that right now? Or is 'responsible corporate behaviour' to abandon Brazil to it's environment-hating leader?

If you believe the events leading up to the last Brazilian election (or political life in Brazil in the last decade as a whole), as well as the election itself, represent 'democracy' or are reflective of the reality of how the majority of Brazilian's feel, boy you've got some reading to do...

Full Metal Junkie · Mar 4, 2020

ProjectEnd said:
If you believe the events leading up to the last Brazilian election (or political life in Brazil in the last decade as a whole), as well as the election itself, represent 'democracy' or are reflective of the reality of how the majority of Brazilian's feel, boy you've got some reading to do...

1. This is not a Brazilian politics discussion thread
2. I have no illusions about how 'democratic' Brazilian politics are
3. Bolsonaro won the election because more people voted for him than against him. That's more than Trump can claim, the president of the self-described greatest democracy on earth.
4. It's really rich to see us Ontarians shame the choice of the Brazilian president when we ourselves elected Ford on his promise do destroy all environmental protections (which he also promptly did after coming into power). Granted, Ford cannot do all the other atrocious stuff that Bolsonaro does, but the article's focus was solely on the environment, hence my argument.
5. IMHO, working on at least somewhat environmentally sustainable projects in Brazil does not equate to embracing and endorsing all the evil stuff Bolsonaro did or will do. Letting others do the work instead, the ones that wouldn't care about the environmental impact at all? Now which choice will lead to a greater good overall?
This is where I sign off from discussing this any further.

smably · Mar 4, 2020

Full Metal Junkie said:
Also, not sure how a democratically elected president, who was elected on the promise of doing all the terrible things he's accused of (and fulfilling these promises), can be referred to as 'despotic'. He's only doing what he was elected by his country to do.