Toronto in decline..... (Back in MY day we had respect!)

[Fresh Start]

Because you comment about life "a decade ago" and if you were my age, your opinion of what things were like a decade ago would be skewed by the fact that you were quite young.

That I stated without hesitation that I'll still be around 25 years from now should have clued you in that I'm not one of those "old foggies" you're talking about. I may sound older because of my humble blue-collar upbringing and reserved nature. I find it pitiful that you seem to only value the opinion of your peer group and fail to socialize with older folk. I know people in their 30s, 40s and 50s that I get along with well, and I often marvel at how much world's apart their life experience decades ago contrasts to now. My neighbours who are fine, upstanding members of the community IMO complained to me recently that their son had picked up "lewd" behaviours from the kids at preschool and is becoming quite the hellion. Is he the exception to the rule, or are youth more and more being exposed to adult-themes at younger ages? That was my point. The way kids talk to their elders these days is disgraceful. So in my nostalgia, I remember my childhood (the '80s) of restraint and boundaries and respect for all types of people based on merit.

 

[adma]

Well, if you want a visual metaphor for societal decline, here it is (not from MMVAs, but apropos anyway)

Which says something about the kids *and* the parental generation (esp. if one thinks of the daddies of Fresh Start's generation who were raised on teen-sex movies, smuggled copies of Penthouse, etc--probably would have thought of the MMVAs as a nice Father's Day present, etc)

 

[toraerach]

Young people today are certainly less conscious of these things than they were a few decades ago and a big reason is that they are growing up in a world with virtually no real consequences to anything they do.

As a young person, I see it as the exact opposite. Young people today are completely aware of all of the consequences of everything they do or could do. We are the generation raised by safety-obsessed parents. We've been told from the time we were old enough to comprehend the news that if global warming (caused by our massive carbon footprints) doesn't kill us all, global overpopulation, or war, or terrorists, or a comet speeding towards the planet, or the food we eat, or the water we drink, or the smog in the air, or HIV, or Bird flu, or Swine flu, or Ebola, or not wearing sunscreen everyday, or meeting a stranger off the internet, or a negative body image, or being too sedentery, or using a cell phone, or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time will. If I remember correctly, what I believe was the opening scene of Pleasantville does a pretty good job driving that point home. There are so many consequences out there that people are forced to start blocking them out, afterall the "world is going to hell anyways" (which our generation probably says more today than any in the past).

It doesn't help that the country is growing older meaning that, as a percentage of the population, there are many more people complaining about social decay (something older people have been doing forever, but now that so many people are saying it, it really drives home that "world is going to hell anyways" message). Older generations should be presenting the world to the younger generations as a gift worth sharing, but instead it feels like we're just inheriting all of your consequences that you didn't forsee or care enough about.

EDIT: now that I think about it, perhaps my generation being the first globalized generation has something to do with it - too many people "thinking globally" without translating that into "acting locally."

 

[Jonny5]

Remember our "summer of the gun"? Put it in perspective.

Ten dead among 54 shot aross city over weekend

When that happens here, I'll know we're in decline.

 

[Second_in_pie]

It doesn't help that the country is growing older meaning that, as a percentage of the population, there are many more people complaining about social decay (something older people have been doing forever, but now that so many people are saying it, it really drives home that "world is going to hell anyways" message). Older generations should be presenting the world to the younger generations as a gift worth sharing, but instead it feels like we're just inheriting all of your consequences that you didn't forsee or care enough about.

The biggest annoyance to me is that while we're expected to fix all their problems, they really don't want to change much of what they do. Kind of like trying to paddle a canoe upstream while the stronger half of your team is paddling in the opposite direction. But it's not about the end, it's the journey to get there. And that's why I think that this current generation of young people is going to be one of the best to live in, hopefully setting a precedent for the generations to come.

 

[that_girl_there]

I said I was done with this thread, but you guys just won't stop...

It's really frustrating to hear everyone complain about "young people today". You can say you're not attacking younger generations all you want, but it doesn't really match up with what you're posting. Don't act like I'm the one demonizing old people - I was jokingly responding to the onslaught of attacks and assertions being made about young generations. I usually get along with older people, but maybe that's because the people I meet are polite enough to think that I'm a smart, well-behaved, mature adult not some punk-ass brat. It was the older people on this forum who started this generations war - I'm just trying to make the best of it. And really, we're going to bring up young celebrities? I certainly didn't go to high school with anyone that dressed like a stripper. Hollywood has always been filled with people a little more nuts than the average citizen.

But more anectodally, since clearly everyone who has passed their 20s loooves the anecdotes, I ride the TTC to and from work every day and I can honestly say that the rudest people are middle aged. Just today a middle aged women cut in front of a crowd of people patiently and politely waiting to get on the escalator out of a busy rush hour College station. And some middle aged person drove through a puddle, splashing me with water. Nice. But mostly, I don't see this social decline. I see people politely riding the TTC, saying 'excuse me' when they need to get off a busy train. People appologizing if they accidentally step on a foot. People giving up seats to older people, and pregant women, and people with young children. Every now and then, yes, there is a jerk. But don't let one bad apple make you think everyone is like that - riding the TTC every day has certainly made me believe that there are more good people in this city than bad.

And furthermore, it was the baby boomers who were raised thinking that robot buttlers are going to do everything for them. And it was the baby boomers who grew up in the new, exciting suburbs, and didn't want to deal with dirty city living. Its the 20 and 30 -somethings who are driving the condo boom and moving back into the conveniences of city living.

But one of my favourite comments has got to be this story about the women from "small town Alberta" - my Mom is from small town Alberta and she escaped to Toronto ASAP. She couldn't deal with the redneck attitudes and ultra-conservative values anymore. People are more outgoing now, but that's because they can be, because they're not afraid of being themselves. I think that's a much better place to be than somewhere where you have to hide who you really are for fear of society hunting you down and running you out of town.

But I think, really, the most important thing to remember is: if you don't like it, you can leave.

 

[urbandreamer]

^Hey, I predict one day you'll be older and wiser too.

 

[CN Tower]

I said I was done with this thread, but you guys just won't stop...

It's really frustrating to hear everyone complain about "young people today". You can say you're not attacking younger generations all you want, but it doesn't really match up with what you're posting. Don't act like I'm the one demonizing old people - I was jokingly responding to the onslaught of attacks and assertions being made about young generations. I usually get along with older people, but maybe that's because the people I meet are polite enough to think that I'm a smart, well-behaved, mature adult not some punk-ass brat. It was the older people on this forum who started this generations war - I'm just trying to make the best of it. And really, we're going to bring up young celebrities? I certainly didn't go to high school with anyone that dressed like a stripper. Hollywood has always been filled with people a little more nuts than the average citizen.

But more anectodally, since clearly everyone who has passed their 20s loooves the anecdotes, I ride the TTC to and from work every day and I can honestly say that the rudest people are middle aged. Just today a middle aged women cut in front of a crowd of people patiently and politely waiting to get on the escalator out of a busy rush hour College station. And some middle aged person drove through a puddle, splashing me with water. Nice. But mostly, I don't see this social decline. I see people politely riding the TTC, saying 'excuse me' when they need to get off a busy train. People appologizing if they accidentally step on a foot. People giving up seats to older people, and pregant women, and people with young children. Every now and then, yes, there is a jerk. But don't let one bad apple make you think everyone is like that - riding the TTC every day has certainly made me believe that there are more good people in this city than bad.

And furthermore, it was the baby boomers who were raised thinking that robot buttlers are going to do everything for them. And it was the baby boomers who grew up in the new, exciting suburbs, and didn't want to deal with dirty city living. Its the 20 and 30 -somethings who are driving the condo boom and moving back into the conveniences of city living.

But one of my favourite comments has got to be this story about the women from "small town Alberta" - my Mom is from small town Alberta and she escaped to Toronto ASAP. She couldn't deal with the redneck attitudes and ultra-conservative values anymore. People are more outgoing now, but that's because they can be, because they're not afraid of being themselves. I think that's a much better place to be than somewhere where you have to hide who you really are for fear of society hunting you down and running you out of town.

But I think, really, the most important thing to remember is: if you don't like it, you can leave.

Why so angry?

 

[Coltaine79]

It's an interesting debate... my 2 cents....

Me and my family arrived from Vancouver to what was then known as the City of Toronto in the mid/late 80's. Although after a year we moved to what was then the City of North York (south of the 401!), we still visited "Toronto" often as we were new to the city. Amidst many of the memories I retain from that period (i.e. the "underground" Bargain Harold's or BiWay at the Eaton Centre! LOL) some of the particularly vivid ones, are of the overt racism we had to deal with on more than a few occasions. Clearly, it must have been significant as it wasn't something that I remember dealing with in Burnaby or Vancouver. Since we were fairly young then, we'd often go "downtown" for various children's events, or do some shopping at TEC or Honest Ed's etc., and more than a couple of racist incidents continue to stick out in my memory. I think maybe it turned us off Toronto; I know it had that effect on my parents... so we stopped going downtown... moved to "outer North York", and then quickly to Mississauga, which was just getting started in it's mindless subdivision phase...

It was only in the late 90's when I returned to d/t Toronto (now a megacity) as a co-op student at a firm, that I realized the character of the city had changed, the demographics had seemingly changed, and I didn't feel that odd racial tension, which I did feel just a decade earlier (even though I was a child). It was like I was rediscovering one of the cities of my childhood, eventually resulting in me moving back to the city as an adult. I can safely say that I don't recall any racism towards me (in Toronto) from the late 90's to now.

The reason I'm posting this is because of those people who were trying to make the point that things in Toronto were so much better 20 years ago. I completely disagree! The Toronto of the late 80's and early 90's was not a friendly place to visible minorities IMO. Perhaps that's why so many of us ended up moving to the soul-less suburbs, where every family had their own vinyl-siding-and-plywood castle to call their own. Not to mention the rise of ethnic enclaves which doesn't really foster national pride.

But I am pleased that the Toronto of today has become a welcoming, multicultural and civil place to live. No more suburbs for me, thanks!

 

[timeo]

Remember our "summer of the gun"? Put it in perspective.

Ten dead among 54 shot aross city over weekend

When that happens here, I'll know we're in decline.

That link shows nothing. Just because 54 people were shot in another city doesn't disprove the notion of Toronto itself is in decline; all it shows is that Chicago's a sketchier place than Toronto. The way I see it, one can only prove Toronto is declining if they talk about how it's changed for the worse compared to 10, 20 or any x number of years ago. Since I haven't lived in Toronto long enough to conclusively state that it's gone downhill, all I'll say is that the TTC seems to have gotten dirtier and more expensive in the last ten years. Rush hour never seemed as bad when I was younger, but perhaps I had more stamina then. There also seems to be more people in downtown, more businesses and more things going on these days, but statistics show that society is also increasingly becoming more economically bifurcated which is not so great. I think people in general used to be more pleasant then. Food's definitely better now than then.

 

[highlife]

Oh gosh, where to start....

First I usually ignore any posts that generalizes through personal experience. On the other hand, this is an internet forum so I"ll contribute my own irrelevant, unrepresentative, day to day experiences:

1. I lived in Toronto for over 20years and noticed an improvement in society in general. Today, I forgot to grab my bank slip from the ATM, the person behind me chased me down and handed my slip to me (folded).

2. i was sitting on the subway the other day (and i take it everyday) and overheard a conversation by some young people about urban decay in Toronto LOL!!!

3. My coworker visiting from our South American office pulled me aside last week and told me that I live in a clean, friendly, modern city and was amazed that gay people can marry here (I rolled my eyes). I told her i would give my right nut to live in Sao Paulo (she rolled her eyes for some reason).

4. A month ago our building organized a general clean up day around our neighborhood. It wasn't related to the 20min spring cleaning event the city was promoting but it was a general clean up day that our Board organized to bring neighbours together. About 100 people showed up. I was pissed that only 75% of the building residents showed up!

5. I went to London UK a couple of years ago. One night while returning to my hotel in Leicester square, about 50 teenagers stood right in front of my swank hotel drinking, loitering, and harassing people at random. I had to come back 2 hours later in order to get in. Apparently this is normal in the UK. God, London and UK is plunging into YOB-dom and I can't wait to go back this year.

So, I think Toronto is actually doing quite well comparatively. But that's my opinion, is it representative of what Torontonians generally think? Hmmm...Meanwhile, I"ll contemplate the puzzling fact that Toronto's population continues to grow and why hundreds of condos are popping up downtown. Torontonians are rude and uninteresting, why the hell are people moving here!?

 

[tkip]

You hit it right on the nail. Lack of facing consequences and shame and shunning. You remove these from the equation and you have trouble.

What we are exeriencing right now is the general lack of presonal responsibilty that was much more common a generation ago and certainly stronger than that with the previous generations. I knew that if I was caught lying to my mother, I would be punished for example. Discipline was dealt whenever we acted up.

If I wasn't home on time (curfews were more common back then) I was grounded. If I had mouthed off to a teacher, there were consonequences. I couldn't just come and go as I pleased in my mother's house. I knew the rules and understood what would happen if they were broken. My mother didn't make special conditions for us.

Rules were rules. Things have changed and I see this reflected not just in the public but in my work enviroment. I have several co-workers in their early 20's at my work (hospital) who have parents working there as well. There are several that have extremely bad attitudes.

You can tell these adult children never heard the word "no" or ever really faced any real discipline growing up. You can just see it reflected in their behaviour. I worked at my mother's work once as a teen and I had to work. No special treatment and I had to answer to the manager. My mother stayed out of it. She wanted us to learn that things have to be earned not given and to face the music.

Somehow along the way, we as a society stopped expecting this and instead, we have the opposite direction where we have problems.

It might sound strange but look at how kids act on today's sitcomes. They yell at their parents, call them names and it's delivered in a manner that's suppose to be "funny" and I think this is part of the trend where the adults have handed power over to their kids and now you have a problem with respect towards the adults and others generally speaking.

And parents need to stop trying to be the "cool" parent and do their job. Parent. You're the authority figure not their friend. I know people are going to suggest that parents of the past were too strict and that they needed to loosen up but I personally think we've gone too far in the opposite direction.

So while attitudes regarding some themes have improved, we've also allowed other traits that were once simply unacceptable to flourish and you can see it everywhere.
This all translates into behaviour where the child thinks they are entitled, doesn't understand boundaries and expects someone else to cater to and fix their mess.....

 

[Thanos]

Ok i'll weigh in with my experience. When my parents first moved to toronto and then montreal, from greece, they told me stories of people throwing garbage all over the street, mcdonalds bags, cigarettes, newspapers on the street. Everyone gave them dirty looks because they only knew a few words in english. Blacks and asians were treated as second class citizens. The city itself took no pride in it's history.
From what they tell me nowadays, the streets are cleaner and people are more open and accepting.
This argument that the city or society in general has deteriorated is weak.

 

[adma]

And really, we're going to bring up young celebrities? I certainly didn't go to high school with anyone that dressed like a stripper. Hollywood has always been filled with people a little more nuts than the average citizen.

Though perhaps my more resonant message re Miley pertained to the parents rather than the kids.

Though speaking of mass downtown entertainment events last weekend, what are we to make of Iggy Pop at Y-D Square, not to mention the sheer all-agesness of it (keep in mind that Iggy is older now than Frank Sinatra was circa "Lust For Life")--esp. in light of it going without adverse incident, and all the more so in that it would've been viewed as either a wet dream or a foolhardy invitation to Altamont-ish disaster a quarter century ago, is that a mark of urban/societal success, or decline, or what...heck, would anyplace other than Toronto (and maybe some Euro-burgs) have been able to pull that one off so cleanly...

 

[tkip]

Also....

I think we need to acknowledge cultural differences when it comes to cleanliness and hygiene.

We have many different groups of people from different parts of the world and they obviously have different standards of what it means for cleaniness, hygiene, manners and other behaviours that don't always mess that well with the canadian standards.

Or at least, they didn't in the past. There was a time when you just wouldn't throw your garbage on the street or from your car window for example. Now it's commonplace.

I just think that people are now generally lazier and dirtier with their habits and you see this reflected with the public. We could probably debate this forever. And don't get me going about Hollywood. The fillth and immoral behaviour that comes from that cesspool is a horrible model that young people are being exposed to.

And I have some advice for that_girl_there. You need to relax and not see these posts as some personal attack on you.

People are obviously generalizing but there is truth to some some of the comments and observations.

One thing I've noticed lately is the sheer whininess. I don't mean to offend but people today just complain about, well, everything. Nothing is good enough and people seem to be extremely thinned skin. And yes, it's more common with a lot of younger people right now but it's spreading to other age groups as well.

I don't recall my parents or granparents making demands for apologies or insisting to not have their feelings hurt to the extent I'm witnessing these days.

And I just realized that someone here has taken the name of a chartacter from Marvel that's one of their greatest and nastiest villains.