Towered
Superstar
Why would they be receptive at all? Brampton basically said fuck you. The money set aside for their portion of the LRT should immediately be given to another priority project, like the East Bayfront LRT.
Why would they be receptive at all? Brampton basically said fuck you. The money set aside for their portion of the LRT should immediately be given to another priority project, like the East Bayfront LRT.
DKsan
Active Member
Because for some daft reason, 6/11 council members seems to think they'll be able to get a billion dollars for a Queen Street LRT despite everything. Or that they will somehow convince the province to violate their own environmental laws to build an elevated LRT following the path of a flood plain.
rbt
Senior Member
The money will go back to them (temporarily at least) and they'll be expected to top-up the difference.
However, since it'll be a separate project/tender dependent on the first one it also won't be tendered before the next provincial election. So, completion of their new LRT plan will be largely dependent on Wynne (or NDP perhaps) having power.
I expect Brown will run on tax reductions, not transit. GO RER will keep a few pieces but that'll be it for untendered projects.
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Allandale25
Senior Member
TOareaFan
Superstar
the 6 of 11 did not say they wanted the money allocated to the Queen corridor....nor did they favour one alternative route over any others....they just said they did not like the current route and they wanted alternatives studied further and considered...but i think you know that.
I think they are wrong.....I believe the Main route is the correct route (although, as my spokesperson above pointed out, I think the wrong technology) but that does not mean their beliefs/statements/votes have to be mis-characterized to advance a point.
For those saying Brampton should be forever in the sin bin for this vote and that money should not be allocated to Brampton because of this vote....can you explain why only Brampton should face this fate for having the audacity for trying to influence a transit decision based on local votes? Should Scarborough forever not get provincial transit dollars because they dared to turn their noses up at a fully funded LRT in favour of a subway..that now is something else?
The "mess" in Brampton will get sorted out....I think (personally view point) that Brampton will end up with fuller versions of BRT on, both, Main and Queen...that is what the ridership warrants and that is what, probably, serves Brampton better.....may end up being the correct decision made for the wrong reasons....not the first time that has happened in municipal politics.
rbt
Senior Member
Yes, Brampton. The same dollar amount will be available to whatever plan they cook up. It's a relatively small amount and would look bad politically if it wasn't.
Of course, the province probably won't jump in very quickly in the future on anything other than a very firm and already voted on proposal.
Allandale25
Senior Member
"Spokesperson." Cute. I just correctly pointed out you support BRT for this route. But hey, if you think readers here benefit from passive aggression, it's you're call.
It's not "only" Brampton being told that they need to follow the Big Move planned regional transit network. In fact, I would argue that many cities in the GTHA are excited and happy with the Big Move routes and they align with the local Official Plans. Look at how much progress has been made in York Region through collaboration between Metrolinx and the local municipalities.
What other city have you seen that has successfully convinced the province to change its plan other than Toronto for transit in Scarborough? For Scarborough, in 2013, Toronto was able to convince the province to change the technology but not the funding. In fact, Metrolinx did almost the same thing to Toronto that it did to Brampton: wrote Council a letter and told them to make a decision and the amount of money available. Times change. Many would argue that it's about time Metrolinx/the Province stood up for evidence-based planning and the advice of experts. Should they have done so in Scarborough in 2013? Yes. Will the circumstances that led to Toronto being able to change the technology route be repeated? Unlikely. Why take the risk? There are still many, many other cities in the GTHA that do support the Big Move projects and they already have their studies done. Why ignore the evidence and the funding partner that was willing to give 100% of the capital costs? The HMLRT had a better deal from the province than the LRTs for Ottawa and Kitchener-Waterloo. Even in your example of Scarborough, Toronto still had to hike property taxes to get the subway.
"Forever be in the sin bin"? Nope. There's a provincial election in 2018. If people in Brampton aren't happy with they way the Province has treated Brampton, that would be a good opportunity to show it. Again, if you're a resident in Oakville and there's a completed study for a transit project that your Council supports, why should you have to wait for it to be funded while Brampton makes up its mind? Brampton is not the only city with transit needs in the GTHA.
No, there's no proof that the HMLRT money (Steeles to downtown Brampton GO) will be available for Brampton and that it would be at the same dollar amount. Look at the comments made by the Minister after the Brampton Council vote. We don't know what's going to happen but I don't understand why anyone would assume that province will simply wait months or years for this Brampton Council to make up its mind. There's no evidence of that in the statements that have been made. The Minister clearly said the money could go anywhere in the GTHA. "A very firm and already voted on proposal" could take years.
Adjei
Senior Member
Toronto may have switched decisions on Scarborough but they are putting up a billion dollars of their own money for any subway project or LRT combo. How much money is Brampton contributing for this project....
TOareaFan
Superstar
The option was never given to Brampton. The province did not say "sure, change the plans based on your own interpretation of what you need locally...but our money is capped"...they said "this is the plan, this is the route and if you don't like that, fine, it stops at Steeles" Substantially different approach...and, somewhat ironically, I think that if the province had taken the same approach and the people of Brampton were shown the cost of the alternate plan to the local taxpayer...there would have been substantial pressure on the local politicians to take the approach that ML wanted in the first place.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Relax, I was kidding.
collaboration takes two sides...kind of tough to believe there is collaboration when one side comes to the table saying...this is the route, this is the only route and if you don't support the route then we just won't build it.
Not sure your point....I was simply saying that it is perfectly reasonable for Brampton council to wonder why they are being treated differently than a neighbouring municipality...if that is the go forward stance, fine.....but the first punished for something is always going to feel aggrieved.
Allandale25
Senior Member
The HMLRT was announced in 2008. The LRT Brampton Council vote came in late 2015. At what point between 2008 and 2015 did any Brampton Councillor or the Council provide a specific alternative plan or present the province with an alternative plan? Some in Brampton and on Council like to complain that they weren't listened to yet they put forward no viable alternative plan.
Why didn't they six Councils who voted against the HMLRT present their vision before they voted against the funded plan? Why did the last Council only vote against ideas and not propose anything?
Maybe you should run for Council TOareaFAN and present alternative options.
TOareaFan
Superstar
There has been, historically, a disfunction/disconnect between staff and council in Brampton. While staff worked alongside Mississauga and ML on the Main route...assuming (I guess) that it would meet no resistance there was no opportunity for council to vote on it until the vote you speak of.
Again, though, how is this different from the situation in Scarborough....well it is different because the resistance came earlier...because in the case of Scarborough work had already commenced and money spent....then the LRT plan was scrapped.
. They presented options (none that I think are better but they did do that) which were dismissed by that same staff giving what amounted to little more than back of the envelope calculations designed to show them they were not worth studying further....I was actually surprised they went that far...because the province had already said they would not consider any alternative to straight up Main Street (that is until some rookie councillor convinced them he might compromise and they said they would consider 1 but not any others)
Why would I do that? Who would accept a low paying job where you are constantly criticized no matter what you do?
Allandale25
Senior Member
The alternatives to Main received more study and evaluation than you're referring to and more than just by Brampton staff. There are lots of links out there to reports that support this. I understand that's part of a narrative that's developed for some folks and if you're part of that group great, but others strongly disagree. It's based on more of subjective opinion rather than facts.
Staff who are professional planners, civil engineers, transit planners, and people who have actually built transit projects certainly have a lot of credibility. Sadly, time moves on and the debate on what happened with the HMLRT will mostly play out here and how people decided to vote for in 2018. I doubt any books will be written to fully document the period of time we're debating.
The province didn't say they wouldn't consider non-Main routes until late in the Spring of 2015. So, those in Brampton who opposed Main between 2008-2015 did nothing.
Only $85M of the Scarborough LRT money had been spent by the time Toronto Council changed its mine. That's way less than the entire project. Not sure what your point is.
Staff who are professional planners, civil engineers, transit planners, and people who have actually built transit projects certainly have a lot of credibility. Sadly, time moves on and the debate on what happened with the HMLRT will mostly play out here and how people decided to vote for in 2018. I doubt any books will be written to fully document the period of time we're debating.
The province didn't say they wouldn't consider non-Main routes until late in the Spring of 2015. So, those in Brampton who opposed Main between 2008-2015 did nothing.
Only $85M of the Scarborough LRT money had been spent by the time Toronto Council changed its mine. That's way less than the entire project. Not sure what your point is.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
not part of any group.
The point was that the Scarborough u-turn came later in the process than the Brampton dead end....that is all....but, yeah, we only wasted $85 mil
Allandale25
Senior Member
not part of any group.
The point was that the Scarborough u-turn came later in the process than the Brampton dead end....that is all....but, yeah, we only wasted $85 mil
To clarify, I meant a group of people making a similar argument.