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Re: Mississauga `praying' for transit funds

A random question: if Mississauga builds street level LRT, will it be Toronto guage or regular?
 
Re: Mississauga `praying' for transit funds

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They finally decided? This project seems to operate much of the time in semi-top secret mode.
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OC system was supposed to be an LRT's from day one as I know it.

The RFP call for an LRT line as well the master plan with LRT cars.

As for Mississauga LRT, Siemens is already looking after it.

Having both an LRT and bus on Hurontario at the same time will not work at this time as the demand is not there now. MT sees close to 30,000 riders on weekday.

If the LRT is setup the same way as the 202 as it stands now, it will be like the Sheppard line. Bulk of the ridership is south of Sq One. As for the north, it is Bristol Rd and Sq One except at pm peak time going to Brampton. Then what good does the 202 do when its headway is every 18 minutes when it should be 15 minutes or less in the first place. Also, it misusing 2 stops. The Central Parkway stop should be at Elm Dr, as that where most get on or off compare to CP. From what I see, Robert Speck see very little traffic and I have to find some time this month to do a full review of the route.

If Mississauga thinks that putting in a BRT in its own ROW will solve the problems for 19 now, it will not. The route has call for an LRT since 2003 and it needs to operate every 5 minutes all day and 10 minutes at night.

As for the 403, a waste of money for MT and will only work for GO. If one looks at GO ridership per bus, most buses are 60% empty except for certain times when it will be 100% loaded. I have taken the 407 bus to York as well from Hamilton where I was the only rider on the bus.

So the first place where the real bucks should go in Mississauga is for the LRT on Hurontario follow by Dundas and then the 403 around 2020. There is enough lane capacity in both the HOV and the shoulder lanes to offer 10 minutes service at peak time until 2020.

Hazel has done a 360 on the 403 since the 80's at this time. She has set aside monies badly need for MT to build the 403 the past few years.

Bulk of riders will be from Sq One going east compare going west.

MT need funding now to purchase 20 24-30 foot buses, 40 60 footers and 40 40 footer now as additional to the existing fleet and this is on top of replacing all the 89's to 2100 buses over the next 5 years. The 25 89', 25 90, and the 12 Orion II will be replace starting in July and off the road by October. Some of these buses should be keep for the next year or so as spares until MT gets enough additional buses to deal with the close doors issues on a number of routes especially Hurontario.
 
Re: Mississauga `praying' for transit funds

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A random question: if Mississauga builds street level LRT, will it be Toronto guage or regular?

It will be regular, since easier to get off the shelf models with less conversion costs. If Mississauga was to order streetcars with Toronto's order near when Toronto ordered there would be no extra costs. If it wanted to go with a certain favoured manufacturer, let's say Siemans, and wanted to make a small order (only one line in system) that was different than all other Siemans purchases (Toronto guage) it would end up paying the difference.

Politicians generally look at short term costs/effects over long term costs/effects (such as a seemless system). The current start up costs and the current favoured lobbyists seem are probably more important. Besides, given our current transportation funding formulas who knows if Toronto and Mississauga will ever be united by streetcar/lrt as they were many decades ago. The only other potential downside of purchasing Toronto guage is if Toronto got out of the streetcar business or switched guage (not likely any time soon. The York Region potential lrt proposal was also for standard guage, and there wasn't any public discussion of alternatives.
 
Re: Mississauga `praying' for transit funds

They would have run the highway 7 buses along the 407 'transitway' from parking lot to parking lot as planned, but found out that the contract said that the company didn't have to, which is why VIVA is instead using highway 7. Ironically the 407 is still labelled as a transitway on Official Plans. The 407 would allow them on the roadway but they would have to pay the bus rate and would be charged high rates if they tried to build their own stops and parking lots along the highway (think GO on CN rail lines) Bus or rail priority would be pretty expensive to come by on the 407.
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The 407 transitway is not dead and it is GO's plan; it has nothing to do with YRT or VIVA. GO Transit buses are already using the 407 and this transitway would actually take buses off of the 407 because it is a bus-only road located on the north side of the 407, so I don't see how the tolls on the 407 even matter . Both the Mississauga and 407 Transitways will be bus-only roads like in Ottawa and part of GO's future BRT system.

Funny that title of article states that the Hurontario LRT will be like Ottawa's when it is in fact the BRT that will be similar.
 
Re: Mississauga `praying' for transit funds

OC system was supposed to be an LRT's from day one as I know it.
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My comment was a reflection on the extensive debate concerning the Light Rail plan in Ottawa. This debate has included everything from diesel versus electric, tunnel versus above ground travel in the downtown, potential elimination of express bus routes, a rail loop to Gatineau, suburban lines, a line to the airport, a line to the University of Ottawa, debates on cost and so on, and on.
 
Re: Mississauga `praying' for transit funds

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My comment was a reflection on the extensive debate concerning the Light Rail plan in Ottawa. This debate has included everything from diesel versus electric, tunnel versus above ground travel in the downtown, potential elimination of express bus routes, a rail loop to Gatineau, suburban lines, a line to the airport, a line to the University of Ottawa, debates on cost and so on, and on.
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Looking at the current LRT website and my visited to Ottawa in the fall, the downtown section should be a tunnel section. Even with the LRT, OC is still going to have the same number of buses running alone the current roads in the future as they do now and that will play habited for the LRT's. Even when the other lines get built, there will be too many buses interfering with the LRT's.

Having a line going into Gatineau make sense because of the ridership.

Using the current O-Train in place of the LRT for the system has its plus and cons. It holds more riders than a LRT as well having no need for overhead wires. It cost more than a LRT, but most of all it to heavy for the roads. I like the O-Train and there is a need for it especially for GO.

Going to the airport is a must and that is sadly missing from Toronto as well Mississauga.

Using the existing route is the best place to start,
 
Re: Mississauga `praying' for transit funds

I disagree with the tunnel idea completely. First off, it is extremely expensive for what is a rather short distance. It would require considerable modification to roads and many buildings, so it would take far longer to complete than a surface route.

As for the number of buses being the same, Transpo has suggested that they would reduce express buses, and stop some from going downtown, using them to feed the O-Train line. They have not yet fully indicated all routes to be affected at this time.

When you say "using the existing route" is the best place to start, do you mean the existing O-Train route presently in use? The problem is that line has only a single track. In order to be useful, there must be a second track. This will require enlarging tunnels and bridge underpasses for added width. Aside from the major stop for Carleton University, the train route ends at a Transitway stop in the middle of nowhere (Lebreton Flats), a little over half a kilometre from the downtown core. What is urgently required is an east-west line that takes the train into the downtown. This is being planned for.

Using the existing Transitway busway is good, except for the fact that buses won't be able this system. After Blair station, the busway runs along highway 174, and low density suburbia.
 
Mississauga: City transit plan on the fast track

THE MISSISSAUGA NEWS
City transit plan on the fast track

Joseph Chin
Mar 10, 2006

York Region residents are already enjoying their new Viva Belgian-made super buses.

Brampton residents could be hopping on board their $200-million AcceleRide system by next year.

Could Mississaugans ever find themselves riding a state-of-the-art, light-rail train through the city?

It's possible: this summer, the City will launch a study of "higher-order" public transit (meaning transit with its own dedicated route) along Hurontario St., a thoroughfare that attracts nearly a quarter of Mississauga Transit's daily users. And, last Friday, Ontario Transportation Minister and Mississauga MPP Harinder Takhar was in the city vowing his government will pay its share...and soon.

"Ministry staff have been working with the City of Mississauga to define the scope of the project, including costs. We will give Mississauga our portion, actual money. An announcement is coming soon," Takhar told members of the Mississauga Board of Trade.

It's welcome news for Martin Powell, the city's commissioner of transportation and works, who says the study will be looking at several options, including bus-only lanes, signal priority and a light-rail link.

"The higher-density development we're getting in the city centre goes a long way to justifying (the new system)," said Powell. "And, it's not just in the city centre, it's also in the airport corporate centre."

Takhar said the Mississauga "Transitway" will be an extension of the $400-million bus rapid transit system (BRT) along Hwy. 403. That plan, which has been stalled since 1989 by lack of funding from the federal and provincial governments, would see bus-only lanes and stations run from south-west Mississauga along the Hwy. 403 corridor to Hwy. 407. In time, the plan calls for BRT links to the Kipling subway station to the south and Pearson International Airport to the north.

"All the systems (the BRT, Brampton's AcceleRide and the 407 Transitway) will be connected," said Takhar.

The minister, who's also the MPP for Mississauga Centre, is enthused over the Province's plan for a massive region-wide BRT network that would extend all the way from Hamilton to Durham Region. The Mississauga segment is the only portion with an approved environmental assessment, which has City officials optimistic. It also doesn't hurt that a GO Transit study estimates that in five years the Mississauga portion of the BRT network could attract nearly 10,000 passengers an hour in the peak direction during rush hours.

Takhar said higher-order transit in Mississauga will not be compromised, despite the delay in creating the so-called Greater Toronto Transportation Authority.

"My ministry's priority will be given to projects underway. We will not wait for the GTTA to determine their priorities," he said.

Louroz
 
Re: Mississauga: City transit plan on the fast track

"The higher-density development we're getting in the city centre goes a long way to justifying (the new system)," said Powell. "And, it's not just in the city centre, it's also in the airport corporate centre."
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Airport Corporate Centre being "high density"?! What kind of standards were they using, exactly?

AoD
 
Re: Mississauga: City transit plan on the fast track

I wish reporters would do a little more research before they state the transit is bus-only lanes, when it is in fact a bus-only road. Still it is nice to see some attention to transit in the news lately.

I assume Acceleride is a cooperative effort between Mississauga and Brampton? After all, it is clear that it will connect to MCC at least.

My theory is that MT's route 19 and BT's route 2 (both serving Hurontario) will be combined into one route, perhaps this year, with both transit systems operating the route at the same time. This is the similar setup that Brampton has with York Region for route 77.

Consider this:

- Currently, Brampton Transit tickets and passes can be used anywhere on Mississauga Transit route 19

- MT has no route 2 and BT has no route 19

- BT recently changed route 2 so that it does not serve Shopper's World anymore, perhaps to improve the connection to MT routes 19 and 202.

- MT recently added a new express route on Hurontario and numbered it as 202 to match Brampton's route 2, instead of 209 or 219

- Mississauga recently took the articulated buses off of route 19. Brampton has no articulated buses, so it might be that Mississsauga is just adjusting and testing the service so that Brampton can provide it in the future.
 
Re: Mississauga: City transit plan on the fast track

Airport Corporate Centre being "high density"?! What kind of standards were they using, exactly?
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Alvin, I'm sure you can understand that we aren't going to get anything taller than 10 storeys in the district because of the airport across the street. However, compared to most suburban business parks in the GTA, the Corporate Centre is pretty dense. It is already one of the largest employment centres in the GTA. Also the potential for even further intensification in the district is huge.

Louroz
 
Re: Mississauga: City transit plan on the fast track

FM:

Height has nothing to do with density, without consideration of lot-coverage, etc. As to the "size" of the node in absolute terms - if you have enough of these low density towers in a large enough area, you'd end up with a sizable employment population, but it doesn't mean it is dense, nor transit supportive. And that's the point I am getting at.

AoD
 
Re: Mississauga: City transit plan on the fast track

"The 407 transitway is not dead and it is GO's plan; it has nothing to do with YRT or VIVA. GO Transit buses are already using the 407 and this transitway would actually take buses off of the 407 because it is a bus-only road located on the north side of the 407, so I don't see how the tolls on the 407 even matter"

I didn't say the idea of a 407 transitway was dead and I didn't say that the 407 agency prohibited buses from using it. The details of the agreement with the Conservatives did not dedicate space for a transitway as had been reported at the time, in fact the contract said nothing about transit on the so-called 407 transitway. When the region attempted to negotiate with the agency, they quickly found out that their rights had been signed away by Harris government negotiaters.

What the 407 corp. said was that transit vehicles are allowed on the road but they would have to pay an extra due to their vehicle class. They said that they did not have to build a transitway and would only do so if the space for the transitway provided them with higher yearly revenue then its alternative use as space for cars and that if the city agency at anytime stopped paying fees, the transitway would revert to 407 ownership (likely for vehicle use). The terms were expensive and gave the transit provider few rights and so highway 7 became the default choice. If the transitway had been built it is extremely unlikely that Viva or YRT would have proposed a r-o-w on highway 7.

If GO can ever afford the money to rent space along the 407, sign in for a long-term contract and put in a transit way it will happen, but beware of the rate and the rate hikes. The 407 will not sign a 99 year lease, like the city except at obscene rates, and so there is a good chance that the transit providers would be gouged whenever the contract came due, especially if the region were dependent on the transitway.
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Why highway BRT so popular with politicians:

The Transportation Ministry build and understand roads as do the majority of driving suburban politicians and their driving residents. They fully expect transit to succeed using the same build the highway, parking lot and sprawl formula that has been so successful in increasing automobile usage.

Bus highways along highways take little money, have no political costs and do not change land use (for the better). they entrench auto-dependency and help to add pavement and lower densities. Its the kind of transit any Conservative or Liberal suburban politician could support.
 
It always bothers me that transit articles illogically pledge that public transit will reduce congestion, it is setting people up for disappointment. Transit or new roads only reduce congestion in a steady-state system not necessarily in a dynamic system that changes over time (aka the real world). Mass transit allows for efficient land and energy use by allowing more people and goods to travel in a given area. Congestion will automatically rebound from increases in road or transit capacity if the population is increasing, but you don't even need to increae population to see the congestion return to previous levels. The congestion itself may suppress latent demand for travel on the roads, meaning every person you take out of a car and on to transit will be replaced by another person who will drive a car who previously did not travel. The additional trips can be accounted for by decentralization afforded by any gaps in the congestion.
 
Alvin, I'm sure you can understand that we aren't going to get anything taller than 10 storeys in the district because of the airport across the street. However, compared to most suburban business parks in the GTA, the Corporate Centre is pretty dense.
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Wow, pretty dense compared to office parks in the GTA. What a powerful statement. That is a criteria that is hard to loose... like saying "voted the fairly attractive building at 1 King West". Do any of those office buildings have a parking garage? Without a parking garage an office park that near 98% of employees drive to isn't going to be dense... most buildings have a sea of parking lots and for most buildings you would need to walk across a parking lot to get to the street where any transit would be located.
 
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