sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
But first Vaughan will have to elect Mel Lastman for mayor,.... only he can get it done!
cruzin4u
Senior Member
A view of the Southern portion of Hullmark. I think Tridel and Liberty Development (World on Yonge) got a discount on dark spandrel this year.
Conrad Black
Senior Member
Not crazy about the cladding on such a prominent building. Should have been curtain wall.
HDLtd
New Member
You make lots of good points Sunny Ray. However, the drivers from Steele's DO avoid Yonge and 401, and as a result Bayview and 401, Leslie and 401, and the 404/DVP/401 interchange are as bad for traffic as the intersection in question. There is no one smoking gun for the traffic problem. All I'm suggesting is that it shouldn't be blamed entirely on condo development, as suburban sprawl north certainly contributes and in my opinion it contributes more than people give it credit for...
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caltrane74
Senior Member
It is curtainwall on a couple of sides. And I think the most prominent points of the tower will be clad in curtainwall. The sections facing Yonge, will be either curtainwall or balcony glass, not window wall and spandrel.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
Yes, drivers on westbound 401 avoiding Yonge-401 interchange would usually exit early at Bayview-401 or Leslie-401 during rush hours. Where are these drivers going? Look at Bayview-Sheppard and Leslie-Sheppard intersections,.. they both have double left turns from northbound Bayview/Leslie to westbound Sheppard. There's only a handful of condos near those intersections,... They're mainly headed for Yonge-Sheppard area which is packed with condos.
Yes, suburban sprawl north is problematic,... but suburban sprawl north at Steeles was a problem in the 1960's,... now suburban sprawl north is really talking about new development along Yonge near Major Mackenzie or Elgin Mills Road,... in Richmond Hill,.... way north of Steeles Street. One could argue they should be using Highway 7 or 407,.... ideally 407 but its a toll highway and people are cheap.
Car use in an area correlates heavily with the population density in the area,... car usage at Yonge-401 area correlates heavily with the high population density in the area,... and not with the population density of Richmond Hill about 10km to the north.
Surely, you would agree that high density condos (upward urban sprawl) in the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area is more responsible for the gridlock in the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area than the lower density suburban sprawl homes in Richmond Hill 10 km to the north.
Arguing suburban sprawl is the source of the problem for the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area, would have had some validity after World-War-2 when this area was converted from farmstead to post-war bungalows on large lots,.... an maybe even in the mid-1960's when they widened the 401 by adding collector lanes.
Suburban sprawl north happend in along Steeles in the 1960's,... most of those suburban homes still exist today as they were back then,.... the conversion of bungalows to McMansions isn't at such a high rate along Steeles as it is in the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area. Its only recently that Yonge Street north of Steeles have started to see some upward urban sprawl,... aka condo development. And even then, we're only taking about a handful of condo on Yonge north of Steeles (World on Yonge is still in construction), another handful of new condo at Steeles and Bathurst, and another handful of new condos at Steeles and Dufferin,..... this in constrast to the 50+ condo towers that have opened in the last 15 years in the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area. Only one office tower have opened in that time period in the area,....
Sure office worker contribute to gridlock traffic in the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area,... as do suburban sprawl from north of Steeles,... but certainly the biggest factor in the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area is the much higher density from all those condo towers,... about one condo tower openning up every 4 months. Look at it this way,... a typical condo uses the same footprint of land that was once occupied by about 10-15 homes,... with about say 15-20 cars. But the new 30 storey (within 100m limit that's now toast) condo has about 700 residents and about 500 cars! From 15-20 cars to 500 cars,... every 4 months when a new condo opens up.
How many parking spots will Tridel-Hullmark Centre have? 1062 spots in 5 level of underground parking. Are they still doing that above ground parking as well,... with the above ground upward spiraling ramp in the southeast corner? It was in the 2006 draft when they had 1249 parking spots but I can't find it in the 2009 Final report.
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Jaye101
Active Member
No, you can blame that on the Suburban built form of North York. While North York isn't exactly as sprawly as anywhere the 905, it's still suburban. The entire "city centre" is located along one street, while the areas surrounding Yonge are still quite suburban in nature. Part of the reason why people move to places like NYCC, MCC, and SCC because it enables them to use their cars. People who live in this city centre do not spend their whole existence on Yonge, and there is no dense reliable network of transit that is on a practical scale, nor is there the consistency in the built form over a wide enough area in order to justify it.
In Downtown Toronto the network of streets are dense, the transit network is dense, and it is surrounded by significant density (both residential and retail) as far north as Eglinton, as far west as Parkside and as far east as Victoria Park - if not further.
The problem is that the majority of NYCC is built along one street as opposed to being built as a wider neighbourhood encompassing more than just towers, but also townhouses and low rise developments. I'm not saying that they aren't building low rise structures at all, I'm saying that they aren't building them on a wide enough scale. The neighbourhood should have more of a consistent density throughout, it would benefit the area far more if they built less towers and more medium density developments in a wider area. The density of the neighbourhood would be the same, only it would be built in a more naturally developed environment where you don't go from low density to high density by crossing the street.
They should also narrow Yonge to two lanes in each direction and expand sidewalks, and build a tighter network of designated main streets to carry the traffic in order to diversify travel patterns, and to encourage transit use and the investment in new frequent neighbourhood transit routes. Retail should also front more streets than just Yonge in the area to create pedestrian destinations.
Just my opinion though.
sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
Where in the entire city of Toronto is there any frequent neighbourhood transit routes? Forget about the official TTC bus-streetcar schedule where they are supposed to be there every 10-15 minute,... what is reality? And when they finally arrive, they arrive in packs of 3 or 4 buses or streetcars,... the first and second are always packed,... and the last ones are always basically empty,... just a waste. Yes, the downtown Toronto transit network is dense,... but it is hardly reliable or desirable. I can't even count the number of times I've given up waiting for the College or Dundas streetcar.
The original downtown North York plan from the city of North York was for only office buildings along Yonge Street and then condo directly behind them,... all within the service ring road of Beecroft and Doris basically from Finch to 401. Of course, the market for office space isn't there so they started letting condos development on Yonge Street,... ala EmpressWalk which originally contributed to buiding Doris Ave, rebuilding elementary (McKee), high school (Earl Haig) & community centre (Mitchell Field). That open the floodgate of condos onto Yonge Street.
Developers maximize their profits by building as many storeys as they can,.. that former 100m (about 30 storey) is now out the doors,... since GibsonSquare appealed it to OMB,... now HullmarkCentre is about 165m and EmeraldPark is about 145m. Do you think developers would build townhouses or condos? A lot depends on the zoning,... often between the condos within the service ring roads and the older established bungalows/McMansions outside the service ring road,... they'll build townhouses as a buffer,... or low rise condos,.... they don't want a hugh condo tower and little bungalow side by side.
Sure they could have set a 50m height limit (about 15 storey),... but that would mean more midrise condos over a wider area,... forcing people to walk further to get to transit. Yes, walk,... forget about taking the bus to subway,... the bus will be packed full of people going to the subway. Do you really think people would walk further to get to transit,... especially when they have cars? The TTC isn't exactly a good efficient transit system. If you've travelled and been on other transit systems around the world,... I`m sure you would know what I mean.
Three lanes on Yonge street isn't even enough and your suggesting narrowing Yonge Street to two lanes so that we can have wider sidewalk? Most of downtown North York already have 12 feet wide boulevard sidewalks,... there's so much space for pedestrian that they even put in huge cement planters for trees on the sidewalk. Does this sound like the sidewalks in downtown North York are too narrow.
This is where downtown Toronto and North York are different. In downtown Toronto the street width was determined over a 100 years ago and you have storefronts going right to the sidewalk. In downtown North York, there used to be a lot of strip plaza,.. that had parking in the front between the sidewalk and the store. The site for Tridel-Hullmark Center used to have a huge parking lot between the sidewalk and the stores (NationalGym, Metro, etc,...)
Yes, there are some spots along Yonge Street where the sidewalk is way too narrow,... like the sidewalk on the east side of Yonge Street just north of the Avondale condo community,.... way too narrow, especially for all those residents going to the subway entrance at the south end of the Hullmark Centre site. But as those properties get developed,... the city will widen the sidewalk there. The stretch of Yonge sidewalk in front of the current HullmarkCentre site used to be quite narrow (maybe 6-8 feet wide and then there were trees!), most of it is under boarding now,... but if you look at where the curb is and the walls for HullmarkCentre,... there will probably about 25-30 feet width for boulevard sidewalks,... and trees.
As for more designated main streets to carry more traffic,... there's would be the NIMBY-ers to deal with. The service ring roads, Beecroft and Doris has just been extended north of Finch,.... they were built to alleviate traffic on Yonge Stree,... look how busy they are, NOT! Even when traffic is gridlock on Yonge,... Beecroft and Doris often look deserted.
Jaye101,... you have some good ideas,... but what part of Toronto actually have this magical combination of density yet open space; good mix of residential, retail, offices and industry; frequent neighbourhood transit; wide boulevard sidewalk and bike lanes; good neighbourhood schools, parks and community centres; close to all amenities, etc,...?
The original downtown North York plan from the city of North York was for only office buildings along Yonge Street and then condo directly behind them,... all within the service ring road of Beecroft and Doris basically from Finch to 401. Of course, the market for office space isn't there so they started letting condos development on Yonge Street,... ala EmpressWalk which originally contributed to buiding Doris Ave, rebuilding elementary (McKee), high school (Earl Haig) & community centre (Mitchell Field). That open the floodgate of condos onto Yonge Street.
Developers maximize their profits by building as many storeys as they can,.. that former 100m (about 30 storey) is now out the doors,... since GibsonSquare appealed it to OMB,... now HullmarkCentre is about 165m and EmeraldPark is about 145m. Do you think developers would build townhouses or condos? A lot depends on the zoning,... often between the condos within the service ring roads and the older established bungalows/McMansions outside the service ring road,... they'll build townhouses as a buffer,... or low rise condos,.... they don't want a hugh condo tower and little bungalow side by side.
Sure they could have set a 50m height limit (about 15 storey),... but that would mean more midrise condos over a wider area,... forcing people to walk further to get to transit. Yes, walk,... forget about taking the bus to subway,... the bus will be packed full of people going to the subway. Do you really think people would walk further to get to transit,... especially when they have cars? The TTC isn't exactly a good efficient transit system. If you've travelled and been on other transit systems around the world,... I`m sure you would know what I mean.
Three lanes on Yonge street isn't even enough and your suggesting narrowing Yonge Street to two lanes so that we can have wider sidewalk? Most of downtown North York already have 12 feet wide boulevard sidewalks,... there's so much space for pedestrian that they even put in huge cement planters for trees on the sidewalk. Does this sound like the sidewalks in downtown North York are too narrow.
This is where downtown Toronto and North York are different. In downtown Toronto the street width was determined over a 100 years ago and you have storefronts going right to the sidewalk. In downtown North York, there used to be a lot of strip plaza,.. that had parking in the front between the sidewalk and the store. The site for Tridel-Hullmark Center used to have a huge parking lot between the sidewalk and the stores (NationalGym, Metro, etc,...)
Yes, there are some spots along Yonge Street where the sidewalk is way too narrow,... like the sidewalk on the east side of Yonge Street just north of the Avondale condo community,.... way too narrow, especially for all those residents going to the subway entrance at the south end of the Hullmark Centre site. But as those properties get developed,... the city will widen the sidewalk there. The stretch of Yonge sidewalk in front of the current HullmarkCentre site used to be quite narrow (maybe 6-8 feet wide and then there were trees!), most of it is under boarding now,... but if you look at where the curb is and the walls for HullmarkCentre,... there will probably about 25-30 feet width for boulevard sidewalks,... and trees.
As for more designated main streets to carry more traffic,... there's would be the NIMBY-ers to deal with. The service ring roads, Beecroft and Doris has just been extended north of Finch,.... they were built to alleviate traffic on Yonge Stree,... look how busy they are, NOT! Even when traffic is gridlock on Yonge,... Beecroft and Doris often look deserted.
Jaye101,... you have some good ideas,... but what part of Toronto actually have this magical combination of density yet open space; good mix of residential, retail, offices and industry; frequent neighbourhood transit; wide boulevard sidewalk and bike lanes; good neighbourhood schools, parks and community centres; close to all amenities, etc,...?
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cruzin4u
Senior Member
Taken today.
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someMidTowner
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Actually not bad. There is a lot of glass compared to spandrel. I wouldn't count this one out yet - might end up with something really attractive here
caltrane74
Senior Member
4grand
Active Member
While I'd obviously like this to turn out alright, I think what's more, or perhaps equally, as important as the aesthetics, is the fact that this, and Emerald across the street, will finally serve as anchors for this major intersection. The suburban mall with a parking lot out front, and a parking lot across the street, and an empty lot across from that, were badly in need of infill...
vz64
Active Member
I hope the last remaining parking lot on the south-west corner will be gone soon. Some pictures from today, Sep 23. Back of the building:
Another view that becoming popular:
Another view that becoming popular:
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Sunnyray and Jaye101, you both have good points.
The traffic issue shouldn't be blamed on "condo dwellers", or "office dwellers", or "905 commuters", or "suburban North York". It makes no sense to blame people for going where they need to go. And density is certainly not the cause of traffic, instead it is the solution in the long run. The thing is that it has to be accompanied with infrastructure making alternative transport attractive.
For that reason I agree with Jaye about narrowing Yonge Street. Except that Sunnyray is right that the sidewalks are already wide enough. Most peoples' commutes are far too long for walking to be an option anyway. But if they used that space to build attractive cycle paths along Yonge, I think we could attract a fair number of people out of cars. The city is already working on a city-wide bicycle path along the Finch Hydro Corridor, so there is a very large catchment area where cycle-commuting would be pleasant and safe (as opposed to how it generally involves fighting for road space against cars).
EDIT:
Here's the commuting modal split for residents of Toronto's high density centres, from the study on Toronto's Centres a few years ago.
Downtown: 16% Drive, 27% Transit, 46% Walk, 7% Bike.
Yonge-Eg: 35% Drive, 57% Transit, 15% Walk, 2% Bike.
NYCC: 38% Drive, 52% Transit, 8% Walk, 1% Bike.
STC: 60% Drive, 35% Transit, 4% Walk, 0% Bike.
In the suburban centres, notice that commuting is almost exclusively car or transit. In NYCC, we know that at least 8% are walking distance from work (<1km). Surely, then, more than 1% of people live within cycling distance (1-10km). Clearly there is much room for improvement in the cycling mode share.
The only way to get people cycling is to provide attractive and safe infrastructure, so that's what our focus should be.
The traffic issue shouldn't be blamed on "condo dwellers", or "office dwellers", or "905 commuters", or "suburban North York". It makes no sense to blame people for going where they need to go. And density is certainly not the cause of traffic, instead it is the solution in the long run. The thing is that it has to be accompanied with infrastructure making alternative transport attractive.
For that reason I agree with Jaye about narrowing Yonge Street. Except that Sunnyray is right that the sidewalks are already wide enough. Most peoples' commutes are far too long for walking to be an option anyway. But if they used that space to build attractive cycle paths along Yonge, I think we could attract a fair number of people out of cars. The city is already working on a city-wide bicycle path along the Finch Hydro Corridor, so there is a very large catchment area where cycle-commuting would be pleasant and safe (as opposed to how it generally involves fighting for road space against cars).
EDIT:
Here's the commuting modal split for residents of Toronto's high density centres, from the study on Toronto's Centres a few years ago.
Downtown: 16% Drive, 27% Transit, 46% Walk, 7% Bike.
Yonge-Eg: 35% Drive, 57% Transit, 15% Walk, 2% Bike.
NYCC: 38% Drive, 52% Transit, 8% Walk, 1% Bike.
STC: 60% Drive, 35% Transit, 4% Walk, 0% Bike.
In the suburban centres, notice that commuting is almost exclusively car or transit. In NYCC, we know that at least 8% are walking distance from work (<1km). Surely, then, more than 1% of people live within cycling distance (1-10km). Clearly there is much room for improvement in the cycling mode share.
The only way to get people cycling is to provide attractive and safe infrastructure, so that's what our focus should be.
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sunnyraytoronto
Senior Member
Personally, I think the biggest blame goes to the city and province. The province for declaring NYCC a high density mobility hub. The city for allowing all the condo developments without putting in adequate infrastructure to support them,... infrastructures in terms of higher capacity roadway (highway - provincial blame), transit (Yonge subway already operating at 100% full capacity and Sheppard Stubway doesn't go anywhere), lack of schools (condo kids are bused out of the area), etc,....
Think about it,... to build Tridel Hullmark Centre, the developer gave the city about $100 million in fees,... Will NYCC see $100 million worth of infrastructure? Where??? Look at all the other condos that gave their various development fees to the city,... what happen with all that money??? There's been 50 new condos in NYCC since amalgamation 15 years ago. We're talking BILLIONS of dollars in development fees from these NYCC condos,... where has all that money gone????
The new bike trails along the Finch hydro corridor are great as a recreational trail,.... but who use it to commute? In order for a bike trail to be effective it must be part of a network that go to the people,.... thus we need a bike lane/trail along the North York service ring roads (Beecroft & Doris). The city is already considering bike lanes on Beecroft.
Next, the bike lane/trail would have to navigate south to connect to the existing on street bike lanes in North Toronto near Lawrence/Eglinton Duplex,.... that goes downtown. The toughest part is navigating a bike lane though the Yonge-401 interchange,.... and then there's the challenge of that huge crater,... err, valley,...basically it's easy to ride down to Yonge and YorkMills/Wilson,... but once you're down there, its a real b*tch to ride back up in any direction. I do have a proposal to solve that problem,....
Hopefully, we'll get that NYCC bike data up from that measley 1%,... that's a really pathetic number,... especially given all the condos in NYCC - the demographic is a lot of people in the 20s & 30s,.... active people,... active people who should be biking!
BTW,... the MTO will be rebuilding Avenue Road bridge over the 401,... and the city have requested they widen Avenue Rd bridge over the 401 so that the city can put in bike lanes there.
Think about it,... to build Tridel Hullmark Centre, the developer gave the city about $100 million in fees,... Will NYCC see $100 million worth of infrastructure? Where??? Look at all the other condos that gave their various development fees to the city,... what happen with all that money??? There's been 50 new condos in NYCC since amalgamation 15 years ago. We're talking BILLIONS of dollars in development fees from these NYCC condos,... where has all that money gone????
The new bike trails along the Finch hydro corridor are great as a recreational trail,.... but who use it to commute? In order for a bike trail to be effective it must be part of a network that go to the people,.... thus we need a bike lane/trail along the North York service ring roads (Beecroft & Doris). The city is already considering bike lanes on Beecroft.
Next, the bike lane/trail would have to navigate south to connect to the existing on street bike lanes in North Toronto near Lawrence/Eglinton Duplex,.... that goes downtown. The toughest part is navigating a bike lane though the Yonge-401 interchange,.... and then there's the challenge of that huge crater,... err, valley,...basically it's easy to ride down to Yonge and YorkMills/Wilson,... but once you're down there, its a real b*tch to ride back up in any direction. I do have a proposal to solve that problem,....
Hopefully, we'll get that NYCC bike data up from that measley 1%,... that's a really pathetic number,... especially given all the condos in NYCC - the demographic is a lot of people in the 20s & 30s,.... active people,... active people who should be biking!
BTW,... the MTO will be rebuilding Avenue Road bridge over the 401,... and the city have requested they widen Avenue Rd bridge over the 401 so that the city can put in bike lanes there.