canarob
Senior Member
I'm sure you're pulling our leg, but is parking really disappearing near the ACC? I thought that when surface lots were replaced by buildings that an equal number of public parking spots were generally required to be included.
Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
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I'm sure you're pulling our leg, but is parking really disappearing near the ACC? I thought that when surface lots were replaced by buildings that an equal number of public parking spots were generally required to be included.
whatever
Senior Member
I can't see MLSE leaving the arena, but I could see the ACC's office tower and Galleria being repurposed. A big tower or towers might not have made economic sense 10-15 years ago, but today there's an argument to be made. And actually, it looks like MLSE has moved the arena operations office over to MLS (it's on the second floor, across from the RealSports.
taal
Senior Member
That really doesn't make much sense at all ...
Lots of businesses, high profile ones, have a huge commitment to the leafs, in the sense that they buy the extremely pricey corporate boxes and tickets.
Granted there are many companies in Markham, but visibility isn't as much of a concern for them; one of many arguments for why working in Markham is better. The majority of ticket holders to an average game are not die hard leafs fans, or even leaf fans at all.
They spent a lot of money building the maple leaf square and it fits in very nicely. You'd also be surprised how many people take transit to these games. Parking shouldn't be a huge concern.
There's also quite a bit of public parking to make use of here. MLSE has parking it self not sure if it's public ? Also so do the office towers; Surely they can work something out to use the spaces for game days; Those parking lots I'm sure sit nearly empty.
Lots of businesses, high profile ones, have a huge commitment to the leafs, in the sense that they buy the extremely pricey corporate boxes and tickets.
Granted there are many companies in Markham, but visibility isn't as much of a concern for them; one of many arguments for why working in Markham is better. The majority of ticket holders to an average game are not die hard leafs fans, or even leaf fans at all.
They spent a lot of money building the maple leaf square and it fits in very nicely. You'd also be surprised how many people take transit to these games. Parking shouldn't be a huge concern.
There's also quite a bit of public parking to make use of here. MLSE has parking it self not sure if it's public ? Also so do the office towers; Surely they can work something out to use the spaces for game days; Those parking lots I'm sure sit nearly empty.
pw20
Active Member
This is the silliest rumour. The ACC is one of the most profitable arena's; MLSE is also not just in the arena business - they've staked a lot on the success of the Maple Leaf Square as well as Real Sports.
Furthermore a large source of profit for the ACC is as Taal mentioned corporate boxes; banks, law firms etc... are all based downtown.
Is Toronto large enough to support to NHL teams, sure; is there a corporate presence in the 905 to buy corporate boxes, sure. Is MLSE moving? Sure, and I have a bride to sell you.
Furthermore a large source of profit for the ACC is as Taal mentioned corporate boxes; banks, law firms etc... are all based downtown.
Is Toronto large enough to support to NHL teams, sure; is there a corporate presence in the 905 to buy corporate boxes, sure. Is MLSE moving? Sure, and I have a bride to sell you.
taal
Senior Member
meh, I didn't say it was impossible, anything is possible 
But the argument regarding parking has another huge hole ... why fix something that isn't broke ? It the ACC truly starts seeing declining revenue due to a lack of parking (which clearly isn't the case today, as of now) and they are not bright enough to work out some aragments with the nearby private parking; Then sure, one can argue there is benefit in moving the team.
Here's another point; You guys are envisioning a massive sea of parking for the 'downtown Markham' arena ? Don't count on it ... that would go against everything they're trying to do.
I predict they build a massive underground parking, and temporarily put surface parking sounding the site until the downtown Markham project gets closer to this area, then you'll see it get redeveloped.
But the argument regarding parking has another huge hole ... why fix something that isn't broke ? It the ACC truly starts seeing declining revenue due to a lack of parking (which clearly isn't the case today, as of now) and they are not bright enough to work out some aragments with the nearby private parking; Then sure, one can argue there is benefit in moving the team.
Here's another point; You guys are envisioning a massive sea of parking for the 'downtown Markham' arena ? Don't count on it ... that would go against everything they're trying to do.
I predict they build a massive underground parking, and temporarily put surface parking sounding the site until the downtown Markham project gets closer to this area, then you'll see it get redeveloped.
taal
Senior Member
Oh and to add to the rumors; Something I've been hearing lately, from a couple in the know, and it's been mentioned a few times in articles:
MLSE may be taken off the market soon ... they haven't been generating the type of bidding war they were expecting. Which they really envisioned would drive up the sale price.
Another thing to keep in mind, Lary, who has a 20% stake, has the right to match any bid that comes in first.
MLSE may be taken off the market soon ... they haven't been generating the type of bidding war they were expecting. Which they really envisioned would drive up the sale price.
Another thing to keep in mind, Lary, who has a 20% stake, has the right to match any bid that comes in first.
canarob
Senior Member
meh, I didn't say it was impossible, anything is possible
But the argument regarding parking has another huge hole ... why fix something that isn't broke ? It the ACC truly starts seeing declining revenue due to a lack of parking (which clearly isn't the case today, as of now) and they are not bright enough to work out some aragments with the nearby private parking; Then sure, one can argue there is benefit in moving the team.
Here's another point; You guys are envisioning a massive sea of parking for the 'downtown Markham' arena ? Don't count on it ... that would go against everything they're trying to do.
I predict they build a massive underground parking, and temporarily put surface parking sounding the site until the downtown Markham project gets closer to this area, then you'll see it get redeveloped.
Yeah, any surface parking will be temporary. Since the area is still largely a blank slate, every new building nearby can be built with many levels of underground parking. Even a large parking garage abutting the 407, and hidden behind other buildings, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
Red October
Senior Member
Yea... -4% chance of that happening.
Big Daddy
Senior Member
So, you actually believe that the leafs will allow another team into the GTA?
You actually believe that that makes more sense?
You actually believe that that makes more sense?
Red October
Senior Member
Neither will happen.
The Leafs are staying in the ACC (one of the best facilities in the NHL and NBA), and Markham is not getting a team.
taal
Senior Member
For now, but long term can't you see Markham getting one ?
It's not Markham it's the GTA, but Markham happens to have built the arena (future tense ).
I by the argument that concert sales alone will make it financially sound.
It's not Markham it's the GTA, but Markham happens to have built the arena (future tense
).I by the argument that concert sales alone will make it financially sound.
Big Daddy
Senior Member
Nobody would invest in an arena of that size and scale without a major sports franchise connected to it - there's no way that would make any financial sense. Concert sales fill in the holes between major sports events, but they could not possibly carry the cost of such a project alone especially given the GTA has many concert venues already in operation.
taal
Senior Member
Really, there aren't any examples in America that are like that ?
hmm, so your reaching this conclusion because you think its the only logical thing that makes sense, not that you have inside information correct ?
But to certain degree I by your logic. It centers around a couple points / theories:
1) An arena cannot be financially feasible without a major sport team.
- Not sure, you could be right.
2) The leafs would not allow another team (they may not have the right), and to a greater extent the NHL will not allow another team (for the foreseeable future).
- I don't think the leafs can control this as much they make out they can. But I do believe the NHL has no desire.
So given those two points you case does indeed make some sense.
But here's a question ? Where's the profit, wouldn't it make more sense just to buy out the leafs and continue operating them from the ACC ? No costs for the arena whatsoever, moreover, we already know it does well. The arena in Markham will likely make the same or less money per year (assuming the ACC is essentially completely written off - by moving the teams it would be effectively).
hmm, so your reaching this conclusion because you think its the only logical thing that makes sense, not that you have inside information correct ?
But to certain degree I by your logic. It centers around a couple points / theories:
1) An arena cannot be financially feasible without a major sport team.
- Not sure, you could be right.
2) The leafs would not allow another team (they may not have the right), and to a greater extent the NHL will not allow another team (for the foreseeable future).
- I don't think the leafs can control this as much they make out they can. But I do believe the NHL has no desire.
So given those two points you case does indeed make some sense.
But here's a question ? Where's the profit, wouldn't it make more sense just to buy out the leafs and continue operating them from the ACC ? No costs for the arena whatsoever, moreover, we already know it does well. The arena in Markham will likely make the same or less money per year (assuming the ACC is essentially completely written off - by moving the teams it would be effectively).
jn_12
Senior Member
They may not have a choice as I mentioned on the last page:
One interesting twist here is the jurisdictional issue - whether a Leaf challenge to a hypothetical NHL approval under 36.4(c) would be heard in US or Canadian Courts, under US or Canadian Law, or both (especially if the Leafs are challenging the relocation of a US based team). I would guess that the primary challenge would be under the CCB and Ontario courts.
The CCB's preliminary advisory ruling that the NHL's relocation policy did not violate the Competition Act was based on By-Law 36 being in effect - simple majority rule and no single team veto.
The Leafs might be in a Catch-22 here. If they challenge By-Law 36 as being an invalid de facto amendment to the NHL Constitution (which would have required a unanimous vote), they risk By-Law 36 being invalidated, which could lead to the CCB ruling that the territorial restrictions of Section 4 violate the Competition Act and are thus unenforceable - the net result would be a team would be free to move to Markham with no vote, no veto, no restrictions, and no territorial rights fees (which were one of the considerations in the vote under 36.4).
taal
Senior Member
I think they may indeed not have a choice.
But let's assume that doesn't matter for a second; What about the idea of just movnig the leafs period to Markham ? Does that make any busienss sense, I think that's his argument.