Toronto GO Transit: Davenport Diamond Grade Separation | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

smallspy said:
These kinds of things usually take about 36-ish hours straight.

The trackwork itself is quite easy and can be done in several hours. (Then, multiply it by two.....still not too bad though.)

The bigger issue is the connections for the signalling. Those take longer, and involve communications back to the RTC Centre to ensure that everything is working correctly.


There's some sort of work scheduled for Parkdale this weekend as well, apparently.

Dan
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Reason reason for the postponing of the Davenport overhead opening... Doug Ford had another commitment and couldn't make the photo op.
 
crs1026 said:
I would have thought that the testing and training process would have been well thought out and vetted before this date. Adding requirements at this late date does not reflect well on ML as a buyer and/or project manager.

This sounds more like lack of coordination or oversight for all the sub-project leads who wanted to work on the tracks during a work window. I can believe that somebody only just discovered that there was no clear alley for a test train.

If in fact it's just a matter of conflicting track projects, it's remarkable that the smaller projects would be kept moviing but the larger project cutover is postponed. If nothing else, the contractor would want to get paid for completion of the flyover. Maybe the lesser works have binding penalties for rescheduling also. One wonders what was so pressing about smaller work tasks that they would override the flyover.

OTOH - if somebody is only just having second thoughts about whether the project is ready for acceptance.....

I can't rationalise this to anything other than work not managed effectively.

- Paul
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As much as I am loathe to give them the credit, they're in the right here.

This is just one project. There's something like 6 or 7 other crews working up and down the corridor on other various projects this weekend. And some of those works are necessary to maintain the state of good repair of the fixed plant.

So.......Do you stand down this one, or the 6/7?

For the record, the "training and testing" is simply providing the crews the information that they need to operate the trains safely. It could be as simple as a GOB, it could be as complex as a pilot. If the first train over the line was going to be a revenue service train, how do they get that information to the crews, especially at the headways run during rush hours?

Dan
 
smallspy said:
As much as I am loathe to give them the credit, they're in the right here.

This is just one project. There's something like 6 or 7 other crews working up and down the corridor on other various projects this weekend. And some of those works are necessary to maintain the state of good repair of the fixed plant.

So.......Do you stand down this one, or the 6/7?

For the record, the "training and testing" is simply providing the crews the information that they need to operate the trains safely. It could be as simple as a GOB, it could be as complex as a pilot. If the first train over the line was going to be a revenue service train, how do they get that information to the crews, especially at the headways run during rush hours?

Dan
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They are in the right to want crews to be trained, I agree. Definitely they needed test train operations before they opened for revenue service. Anyone who suggested that they just open and hope for the best does not belong in railway operations.

But…. that brings into question whether a two-day weekend closure was sufficient to assure the track and signal cutovers could be done in time to permit the necessary testing and training - and still be open for business Monday morning. Why would that plan suddenly come into question ? If that was never actually feasible or reasonable, why were any of the (cancelled) windows ever scheduled that way ? Would a three day holiday weekend not have been safer?

And that doesn’t explain how those 6 or 7 tasks landed in the same work plan on the same weekend. If they were must-do, and took precedence, why was this weekend chosen for the cutover at all? That decision was only made recently......How long ago did these other tasks appear on the plan?

I applaud whoever realised that the plan for this weekend was unworkable and called the work off, but only in the spirit that they had to have been mitigating earlier mistakes.

I wonder what’s on the books for Easter, and/or when the next open work window might actually be.

- Paul
 
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smallspy said:
As much as I am loathe to give them the credit, they're in the right here.

This is just one project. There's something like 6 or 7 other crews working up and down the corridor on other various projects this weekend. And some of those works are necessary to maintain the state of good repair of the fixed plant.

So.......Do you stand down this one, or the 6/7?

For the record, the "training and testing" is simply providing the crews the information that they need to operate the trains safely. It could be as simple as a GOB, it could be as complex as a pilot. If the first train over the line was going to be a revenue service train, how do they get that information to the crews, especially at the headways run during rush hours?

Dan
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What's a GOB?
 
crs1026 said:
They are in the right to want crews to be trained, I agree. Definitely they needed test train operations before they opened for revenue service. Anyone who suggested that they just open and hope for the best does not belong in railway operations.

But…. that brings into question whether a two-day weekend closure was sufficient to assure the track and signal cutovers could be done in time to permit the necessary testing and training - and still be open for business Monday morning. Why would that plan suddenly come into question ? If that was never actually feasible or reasonable, why were any of the (cancelled) windows ever scheduled that way ? Would a three day holiday weekend not have been safer?

And that doesn’t explain how those 6 or 7 tasks landed in the same work plan on the same weekend. If they were must-do, and took precedence, why was this weekend chosen for the cutover at all? That decision was only made recently......How long ago did these other tasks appear on the plan?

I applaud whoever realised that the plan for this weekend was unworkable and called the work off, but only in the spirit that they had to have been mitigating earlier mistakes.

I wonder what’s on the books for Easter, and/or when the next open work window might actually be.

- Paul
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Those other tasks had long been scheduled for this weekend. It sounds like the Davenport cutover landed on this weekend only several weeks ago as a way to try and avoid having multiple full-weekend closures in succession, and no one realized until early this week that there was going to be no way to get a train there for testing.

And in fairness, there have been quite a few other grade separations over the past 20 years that have been able to be done over a weekend closure. There seems to be nothing specifically different with this one that wouldn't have allowed them to do the same.

Dan
 
Sorry if I'm missing something, but I thought the other Barrie line work was in the northern portion of the line. This grade separation is on the south end. Why can't they just bring in the train from the south end, go over the new work and then somewhere past the newly constructed area turn the train back? Does training require them to go to the end of the line? Is it standard procedure that they have to get to a station? Is the former York U station still present and could be used, or is the other corridor work extending to the south of that?
 
max said:
Sorry if I'm missing something, but I thought the other Barrie line work was in the northern portion of the line. This grade separation is on the south end. Why can't they just bring in the train from the south end, go over the new work and then somewhere past the newly constructed area turn the train back? Does training require them to go to the end of the line? Is it standard procedure that they have to get to a station? Is the former York U station still present and could be used, or is the other corridor work extending to the south of that?
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My understanding is that there were doing some work at Parkdale (where the Barrie Line meets the Kitchener Line) this weekend that would preclude them bring a train up from the south.

The train doesn't have to go too far beyond the limits of construction, just a couple of miles if they decide they also want to test speeds as well (which usually isn't the case this early after a cutover).

Dan
 
So when they say extra training testing and procedures is that actually legit or is that smoke and mirrors we cocked up?
 
cplchanb said:
So when they say extra training testing and procedures is that actually legit or is that smoke and mirrors we cocked up?
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It’s legit, in that the train handling needs to be well understood and all crews need to understand the do’s and don’ts before they run a loaded train over the route.
For example, certain throttle and brake settings may prove necessary - or undesirable - at certain points. Also, the signal spacing is different - there is now a block signal around Davenport Ave, but no signals approaching or at the Junction. So the engineer on southbound trains in particular may have to think out their speeds and train control differently. With the engine on the north end, slack action on the descent may need special care. While we think of the guideway as a bridge with ramps at both ends, the north end is at the siuth end of a grade up to Eglinton, so the line is more hill and dale than one might assume.
This can be predicted and simulated to a degree, but nothing beats first hand experience. So I would expect the tests to lead to training and operating instructions and as noted even tutoring by a pilot when crews make their first runs over the guideway.
As I stated earlier, what may or may not be bogus is the suggestion that these requirements have suddenly emerged. One would expect that a robust testing and training plan was prepared originally. It would be telling if somebody suddenly rethought that plan.
I can buy the reality that if a work window is missed, we may have to wait until a new window exists in the overall work plan. ML can’t shift everything in its plan by a week or two….just like once you miss your freeway exit, it may be many miles to the next one.

- Paul
 
Some work going on today:
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Sometimes in evenings, but I can’t recall this happening ever before during rush hour. But Monday in a late pandemic hybrid work environment, and with a good subway connection, it’s not going to be a big deal.
 
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