Toronto Four Seasons Centre for the Performing Arts | ?m | 5s | COC | Diamond Schmitt

Ah Miesian purity. Of course, not even Mies was quite that pure.
 
Opera snobs are comical. Everywhere outside of North America opera is seen as popular culture. In Italy, Puccini, Verdi and Rossini were the Andrew Lloyd Webbers of their times. Have you been to La Scala? The jeers and catcalls make a Leafs game look like a tea party. Pretentious opera fans are the art form's worst enemies. AP, i have news for you. Opera was meant for the K-mart shoppers of the world not for the self-proclaimed elite.
 
Agreed, Archivist.

I think that while ap.'s position - that users are stakeholders and stakeholders are more informed and have more rights - is under attack, we should also put the preconceived notions of non-operagoing stakeholders on this board - who claim to be primary representatives of the public interest - under equal scrutiny.

Doing so confronts their half baked notions of what an opera house is "supposed" to be, in design terms. Design isn't just about pretty surfaces, but about honestly expressing the purpose of a building. This building represents a set of values. How to "read" these values seems to be causing a helluva problem to some non-users, because of their preconceived ideas.

Clean, minimalist design does not negate the power of decoration either - the pixillated surface of OCAD, the movement notations etched on the glass of the Ballet School, the gene designs on the glass of CCBR - find their parallel in the delightful "show off" City Room.

papamanjr: A lack of resources - financial or otherwise - can certainly focus the mind on the essentials. I stand by my assertion that the success of the FSCPA owes a lot to those forces.
 
Opera was meant for the K-mart shoppers of the world not for the self-proclaimed elite.

K Mart shoppers may like the opera, but if they knew anything about good design, they wouldn't be shopping at K-Mart (or Zellers, as it's become).

In Italy, Puccini, Verdi and Rossini were the Andrew Lloyd Webbers of their times

Not true. Puccini, Verdi and Rossini wrote music, unlike Lord Lloyd Webber, who has only written noise post-Evita.
 
^I think we run into problems when we start trying to define what design 'must' or 'must not' be. Is the Opera Garnier or the Sydney opera house a failure? They are completely different approaches to the design of buildings that share the same function.
 
Critics were saying the same thing about Puccini in his time (and many still do). Have you seen the contemporary reviews of La Boheme? Most people without a supreme self-confidence would have given up the craft.
 
A lack of resources - financial or otherwise - can certainly focus the mind on the essentials. I stand by my assertion that the success of the FSCPA owes a lot to those forces.

certainly. but it can also impose limits on the creativity that could have otherwise been able to conceive of both impeccable function and truly inspiring form.

otherwise, if what you say holds true, it just might be time to start cutting budgets all across the board in the hopes of inspiring greatness.
 
The Palais Garnier is so good they moved most of the opera back from Carlos Ott's not terribly good Opera Bastille. And it has a Chagall ceiling to boot.

The Sydney opera is fine looking building, but the acoustics and sightlines aren't much, apparently.
 
Most people without a supreme self-confidence would have given up the craft.

Most people without self-confidence give up most things. I love La Boheme (pretty songs, good death scene). I loved Rent too.
 
K Mart shoppers may like the opera, but if they knew anything about good design, they wouldn't be shopping at K-Mart (or Zellers, as it's become).

Why not? What if they can't afford to shop at a higher-end store?

It's pretty silly to make these blanket judgements.
 
I'll take the acoustically excellent and visually restrained FSCPA over the Sydney Opera House, which falls short acoustically but draws gawking tourists in droves, any day. Give me substance over spectacle.
 
Well, no. Those who live in its shadows can demand some input, but only those with an actual stake in the building (owners, lenders, users) get any actual input. Everyone's allowed to have opinions on anything, but unless you're a stakeholder in a building, your opinion isn't worth a tinker's dam.
Those who live in its shadows are represented by the City. The City and its joe shmoe citizens have a major stake in how any new building looks and functions.

The comments about the architectural honesty of the building are interesting. The spire on the Chrysler Building serves no purpose but I've never heard anyone criticize it. The same could be said about the expensive stone cladding on the bank towers or the gargoyles on Old City Hall. The Four Seasons Centre is a well designed buiding that's architecturally honest (to a point - it's already been pointed out that even the FSC has "dishonest" elements) but a building with more decoration or a wacky design isn't automatically inferior.
 
There was an article in the 'Post' yesterday ( by Sean Carrie ) describing the Friday concert. He writes that it "... attracted a host of people new to opera. And if the crowd's response to the concert was any indication, many of those who came to reconnoitre the sparkling new performance space may well become repeat operagoers."

* Richard Bradshaw is being interviewed tomorrow morning at about 8:45 a.m. on CFMX 96.3 FM.

* The National Ballet have their Gala on Thursday. Live coverage on the big screen in Nathan Phillips Square, starting at 6:30 p.m. Bring your own chair!

* The COC Gala concert will be rebroadcast on CBC Radio 2 on the afternoon of July 1st.
 
First, I am an avid opera-goer. That, according to AP, makes me a stakeholder. Hence, my opinions must matter, since that appears to be his only indicator of worthwhile input. I guess that since I did not donate in the range of certain other persons, my opinions may not be worth as much as theirs, but minor shareholders have their input as well, no?
I guess that must make me a K-Mart shopper, since my ideas, being what they are, are in disagreement with the self-imposed standards of an obviously meticulous, finely honed design aesthetic. Oh well, so much for rational discourse on that front...

Secondly, my arguement was always with APs statement that a building's role is exclusively functional - I think it is no stretch to say that many roles, of varying importance, can be ascribed to a building. As has been stated, zoning bylaws, building codes, and now putative design review panels, are all attempts to ensure that buildings fulfil these roles.
While I admit that function is, rightly, the paramount role for any building, that paramouncy does not exclude other roles.

Indeed, one can ascribe an importance to a building's form in the very nature of architecture, which seems to me to consist of managing a dialogue between form and function. As such, architectural criticism is valid as a criticism of this dialogue. If function were the only measure worth talking about, then frankly, architecture would be obviated as a profession, insofar as engineering (civil, mechanical, electrical, etc.) would dictate form entirely, and there would be no dialogue at all.

Lastly, let me be clear, I never suggested that what was lacking was some sort of Starchitectural wunderbau, all aglitter and aglow, gracing the glossy pages of magazines near and far. This is nothing but an attempt to translate disagreement into a false dichotomy, and thereby discredit that disagreement. I merely pointed out that I found elements of the building's architectural treatment unsatisfactory.
Moreover, my concerns are NOT representative of some sort of unease with functionalist or deconstructivist architecture. I beleive that it is possible for someone to appreciate this sort of architecture, and still find things lacking in the current building.

This discussion is increasingly being framed in terms that suggest that this building is the Platonic expression of functionalist architecture - that situations have conspired to produce a perfect, idealised form that admits of no criticism.
Let me be clear - I don't hate this building, and I certainly don't think it is an architectural failure. I merely have some (relatively) minor quibbles with it based on my subjective impressions. Your arguements presuppose such (self-evident!)perfection that these quibbles must be either nonexistent or irrelevant.
 
That being said, I am extremely happy that this building has finally been built. Cudos are rightly due to Bradshaw, and inded, to Jack Diamond, for pulling off an acoustically superb hall (all reviews considered) on a cramped site on a limited budget... doubly so for putting laudable, celebratory elements such as the City Room, and the beautiful wooden screen therein.
 

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