Tewder
Senior Member
Yeah, this is about right... and anybody who's ever negotiated anything in life understands that you always shoot for the moon knowing that an adjustment earthward will be inevitable. Mirvish and Gehry get it, of course.
Toronto Forma | 308m | 84s | Great Gulf | Gehry Partners
- Thread starter golodhendil
- Start date
Yeah, this is about right... and anybody who's ever negotiated anything in life understands that you always shoot for the moon knowing that an adjustment earthward will be inevitable. Mirvish and Gehry get it, of course.
steveve
Senior Member
thanks for posting that! It also illustrates that models do little justice to the final product. IMO, 8 Spruce street looks much better in real life than that final model depicts.
Really exciting news in the past few days regarding this project.
I'll reserve judgement but I will say this.
- The design and architecture is a step backwards from the original design. No doubt in my mind that this is a less sophisticated and budget-friendly design to build (not even sure if all of the original design was feasible to build.).
- The massing is a step in the right direction. Having 2 towers at more varied heights and implementing more pronounced setbacks is a nice way to break up the mass of the buildings.
- The models do/did a terrible job at showcasing the design. (that see through material showed to represent the dual facade is just terrible. hard to see)
- I didn't see the connection/inspiration they made to Rockefeller Center.
- I also think the ripples on the boxes are a bit too subtle to be there at all (not the waterfall things, but that actually facade protrusions like used in 8 Spruce). Most of the squared facade looks to be flat.
definitely seems like a less-ambitious and watered down version compared to the original, but from what they're producing it's working progress.
freshcutgrass
Senior Member
Color Field is and was the focus of his collecting, which represents the core of his collection, as well as the movement that he champions (including the great Toronto painter of the bunch....Jack Bush). That's why I am Focusing on it. Of course he has works outside of this movement (not that it differs so much from straight up abstract expressionism).
But you would know that if your insights on the topic consisted of something more than a 5 minute Google search.
You schooling us on art is like Keesmaat schooling Gehry on architecture. Wait...it's much worse...at least we know who Keesmaat is, and she at least has some credentials. ha ha ha
What nonsense. The entire art world was duped by that fraud. You make it sound like Mirvish was the major player. Worse...you make it sound like he is guilty of the fraud.
It's truly bizarre the amount of energy people are investing to vilify this guy.
freshcutgrass
Senior Member
How can it be considered hyperbole if the top guy is Rob Ford?
How about "Jesus, talk about being accurate"
LowPolygon
Senior Member
Um right...Actually If you knew anything at all about the art world (a world i've spent 30 years in) you would know just how immature you sound, and you would also know just how serious a blow the Knoedler scandal was to Mirvish as a collector.
But since you just heard of this scandal today, you of course don't know that.
What is nonsense is that idea that the entire art world was duped. In fact, Mirvish was a major player--because he was ALL ALONE in insisting that he be paid full market value for paintings every other collector had regretfully acknowledged were fakes.
Anyway, if you had bothered to read the Felix Salmon piece you would know how badly his bizarre lawsuit against Knoedler was received in the art world. And if you knew anything about the art market, you would know how much money Mirvish was planning on making on those paintings.
As for Jack Bush, yes he's a good solidly middle-brow Canadian painter. Hardly a revolutionary talent, but I like a lot of his work. There is no market for his paintings outside of Canada, but that's not unusual.
But if you think that Mirvish was planning on opening a 60000 sq ft gallery to show off his collection of Bush paintings, you are incredibly naive.
Jackson Pollock auction record: $59 million
Jack Bush auction record: $440,000
bmiller
Active Member
The city has to give approval for this project before any of this becomes relevant. Assuming anything at this point is moot until council says go ahead, and that could be months away.
RyeJay
New Member
For me to project the optimism I have for these Mirvish-Gehry towers, I'd say it'd be great to have them completely built in time for Toronto to host the 2024 Summer Olympics. (Maybe I'm just optimistic about Toronto in general?)
An Entertainment District with density comparable to the Financial District would be transformative in terms of Toronto's capacity to market itself to the world as world-class, just as the City's achievement with its Southcore developments has created a downtown with a new face to greet the globe during the 2015 Pan Am Games.
Of course the downtown's density is great for first impressions -- but in reality there are going to be a good number of people familiar with Toronto who haven't seen it lately get a glimpse of what has transpired over the last DECADE ALONE, and be completely shocked (and in the case of Canadians, have a reignited sense of pride in their megacity).
An Entertainment District with density comparable to the Financial District would be transformative in terms of Toronto's capacity to market itself to the world as world-class, just as the City's achievement with its Southcore developments has created a downtown with a new face to greet the globe during the 2015 Pan Am Games.
Of course the downtown's density is great for first impressions -- but in reality there are going to be a good number of people familiar with Toronto who haven't seen it lately get a glimpse of what has transpired over the last DECADE ALONE, and be completely shocked (and in the case of Canadians, have a reignited sense of pride in their megacity).
Tewder
Senior Member
I like your optimism but maybe we should manage our expectations, and let's just see if they can get the University Ave. fountain working by then.
toraerach
Active Member
I'm really liking this revised proposal. A warning that the following is extremely subjective, perhaps to excess, but here goes.
I never hated the original design. To me, it seemed to have this hyper-masculinity about it that was incredibly alluring. I saw some echoes of the Futurist Manifesto in it - tearing down the old for the sake of the new, relentlessly male, phallic, a departure from the tired convention of the refined box so trumpeted by the establishment critics. There was little regard for context, which, I must admit, can be appealing at times if executed properly. Had it been proposed on another site with less baggage - this is, after all, a fairly functional urban stretch - I would have been a more vocal supporter. The proposed loss of the POW was too much for me.
It's much easier for me to get behind this new proposal. I'm quite pleased that the POW is to be saved and that the area's existing urban bones are to be respected. I don't think we've seen the project's masculinity diminished either - though the flashy six-pack abs are traded in for a more sophisticated, say, collection of fine whisky. It's a more mature proposal for a more mature neighbourhood in a mature city, and that's to be lauded. It's still an extravagant proposal by any stretch - its height and heft unprecedented in the recent history of the city (or country, for that matter). I'm looking forward to seeing it further evolve.
Just as an aside, and I hesitate to bring this up, but the personal attacks on Keesmaat in this thread and elsewhere on the forum are starting to turn me off in a big way. I wonder if there isn't some lingering misogyny motivating some of the, well, viciousness of the attacks. She seems to be doing her job fairly capably, if not in a way immune to criticism (which no public servant should be above). But for the life of me, I can't recall any male bureaucrat provoking such scorn for so little scandal.
I never hated the original design. To me, it seemed to have this hyper-masculinity about it that was incredibly alluring. I saw some echoes of the Futurist Manifesto in it - tearing down the old for the sake of the new, relentlessly male, phallic, a departure from the tired convention of the refined box so trumpeted by the establishment critics. There was little regard for context, which, I must admit, can be appealing at times if executed properly. Had it been proposed on another site with less baggage - this is, after all, a fairly functional urban stretch - I would have been a more vocal supporter. The proposed loss of the POW was too much for me.
It's much easier for me to get behind this new proposal. I'm quite pleased that the POW is to be saved and that the area's existing urban bones are to be respected. I don't think we've seen the project's masculinity diminished either - though the flashy six-pack abs are traded in for a more sophisticated, say, collection of fine whisky. It's a more mature proposal for a more mature neighbourhood in a mature city, and that's to be lauded. It's still an extravagant proposal by any stretch - its height and heft unprecedented in the recent history of the city (or country, for that matter). I'm looking forward to seeing it further evolve.
Just as an aside, and I hesitate to bring this up, but the personal attacks on Keesmaat in this thread and elsewhere on the forum are starting to turn me off in a big way. I wonder if there isn't some lingering misogyny motivating some of the, well, viciousness of the attacks. She seems to be doing her job fairly capably, if not in a way immune to criticism (which no public servant should be above). But for the life of me, I can't recall any male bureaucrat provoking such scorn for so little scandal.
Well said.
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gabe
Senior Member
The video of Keesmaat and Mirvish on The Agenda with Steve Paikin is online.
Arts patron and producer David Mirvish had a bold vision to redesign part of Toronto's downtown. Problem was, the city's chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat didn't like it and wouldn't approve it. They sit down with Steve Paikin to talk about the compromise they came to that was months in the making
http://tvo.org/video/204114/billion-dollar-compromise
Arts patron and producer David Mirvish had a bold vision to redesign part of Toronto's downtown. Problem was, the city's chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat didn't like it and wouldn't approve it. They sit down with Steve Paikin to talk about the compromise they came to that was months in the making
http://tvo.org/video/204114/billion-dollar-compromise
adma
Superstar
Given the "hyper-masculinity" you attribute to the original Mirvish/Gehry scheme, there might be a deeper message #YesAllWomen
freshcutgrass
Senior Member
Wrong again....I read about this story last year, as contrary to what you say, it was widely reported locally. And I love the irony of your accusation of "immaturity" being prefaced with "Um".
Mirvish was one of the last people to maintain the Pollocks were not fakes...true. But that is not surprising, since he's the one who had invested in them. And spotty provenance is a very common issue in the art world, and does not prove anything is a "fake".
But the facts remain that there was no definitive proof that the 3 Pollocks were fakes until Glafira Rosales admitted to the whole scam, and that this "collection" has been circulating in the art market for 20 years and included 63 paintings (not just the 3 Pollocks Mirvish had an investment in). It also involved hundreds of high profile art dealers, experts, galleries and collectors. So to claim Mirvish is the central figure and the big idiot in this whole affair is baffling and plainly incorrect.
I find it odd that you claim his reputation as a collector has been ruined by this matter, as "collecting" doesn't require reputation...it requires money. If he were a gallery/dealer, then it may be a different story. And while this affair has certainly had some negative effect on his general standing in the art world, his 50 years as collector, gallery owner, art dealer, patron and having close relationships with many of the artists themselves has not been ruined by this matter at all, as you claim.
And why you think this would affect his interest in building a home for his art collection is a mystery.
Actually, what is more baffling is the motive behind this extreme need to discredit Mirvish???????
You are nothing but an anonymous skyscraper-geek-chat-forum poster, so you will have to excuse me for questioning your credentials as an art critic/appraiser. And contrary to what you say, and the only thing that is not unusual, is that his paintings didn't start selling in Canada until they started selling in New York and London.
For what it's worth, Bush's work doesn't interest me much either....he's not even one of my favourite former members of the Painters Eleven
I don't recall saying he was building a 60,000 sqft Jack Bush gallery. I believe Mirvish's original concept for the gallery was to have rooms specifically designed to showcase specific artists. His interest was to champion the Color Field movement. I would imagine this would have included Bush, especially since he believes him to be under-rated at the moment, and promoting the movement is his intention.
And I don't understand you logic behind pointing out the vast difference in market value between Pollock and Bush paintings as proof of my naivete in believing Mirvish would display Bush paintings in his future gallery.
First of all, $50 million paintings represent an infinitesimally small percentage of the art collecting world, and Mirvish isn't building the gallery to sell anything anyway, so the the "market" is irrelevant. And unless you count the fakes, he doesn't own any Pollocks, but he does own Bush's. And from a purely business point of view, he only stands to increase the value of his Bush paintings by increasing their prominence.
But enough of you.
I'm curious to know what Mirvish plans on doing with a mere 9200 sqft gallery.
If there are any more personal attacks in this thread, some members will be taking a vacation.
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buildup
Senior Member
Freshcutgrass, those of us who are inclined to support a Toronto based promoter of the arts and a city-builder appreciate you taking the time to counter these half-baked criticisms that would otherwise appear informed. Thanks!