syn
Senior Member
It would be a challenge, no doubt. As jje1000 pointed out, however, it's still possible.
If Mirvish could contribute to the cost of this happening I think the resistance would decrease significantly.
Toronto Forma | 308m | 84s | Great Gulf | Gehry Partners
- Thread starter golodhendil
- Start date
It would be a challenge, no doubt. As jje1000 pointed out, however, it's still possible.
If Mirvish could contribute to the cost of this happening I think the resistance would decrease significantly.
syn
Senior Member
I'd choose what was originally there. The TD Centre could've been built at another location.
adma
Superstar
Ah, but E.B. is *insisting*. It *has* to be on its current site.
Well, put it this way--if Toronto did *not* have the TD Centre, it isn't like the city would be a black hole of nothingness or anything. I mean, you might as well also ask whether one could have the original medieval Basilica St Pietro or its Ren-Baroque replacement, bla bla bla...
Given the history of the TD Centre it would never have been built elsewhere. A worthy sacrifice.
E.B.
Active Member
I was "insisting" that M/G be on its current site, because that's what M/G are offering, not a fantasy location.
At this point, I'm interested in what other UT members think.
Would rather have Mies TD Centre over the original hertage buildings?
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Why on earth should Gehry want to incorporate these exceedingly ordinary (though rare, granted) and pedestrian-realm unfriendly buildings at the base of his towers? This is not a question of talent not being able to mesh old and new. This is a question of how inappropriate a base these would make for these towers. Gehry's architecture is about celebration. These buildings were about erecting some utilitarian warehouses way back when.
Questioning Gehry's talent is asinine, and is a separate matter from whether or not the buildings should be saved.
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skyrise
Active Member
^^+1
*Reality check people*.
Something will get built here regardless. So most of these heritage arguments are a moot point. The value of this block is in the tens of millions of dollars, and these modest warehouses will be gone (save for some sort of facadectomy). These buildings are very difficult to integrate into a new development. A QRCW type proposal wouldn't work here either based on the lot sizes and the size of the existing buildings. So at best expect some facades (which will have to be significantly altered to meet current zoning requirements- i.e. eliminating the basement floor and bringing the 1st floor to ground level etc.).
Its all about economics. Mirvish will build his legacy if allowed, or if not he will sell the land to another developer. To keep this block in its current form is in no way economically feasible. The same type of arguments used to justify the current fate of the Concourse Building.
In light of this, the M/G proposal is by far the best compromise. All this " saving existing urban fabric" nonsense is completely irrelevant at this point. Time to come to terms that this block will change whether you like it or not. The Entertainment District BIA has accepted this and endorsed this project because they understand the reality of the situation and the value this project will bring to the area.
*Reality check people*.
Something will get built here regardless. So most of these heritage arguments are a moot point. The value of this block is in the tens of millions of dollars, and these modest warehouses will be gone (save for some sort of facadectomy). These buildings are very difficult to integrate into a new development. A QRCW type proposal wouldn't work here either based on the lot sizes and the size of the existing buildings. So at best expect some facades (which will have to be significantly altered to meet current zoning requirements- i.e. eliminating the basement floor and bringing the 1st floor to ground level etc.).
Its all about economics. Mirvish will build his legacy if allowed, or if not he will sell the land to another developer. To keep this block in its current form is in no way economically feasible. The same type of arguments used to justify the current fate of the Concourse Building.
In light of this, the M/G proposal is by far the best compromise. All this " saving existing urban fabric" nonsense is completely irrelevant at this point. Time to come to terms that this block will change whether you like it or not. The Entertainment District BIA has accepted this and endorsed this project because they understand the reality of the situation and the value this project will bring to the area.
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buildup
Senior Member
Saying a talented architect could find a way to incorporate the exisitng buildings is like saying a talented wardrobe consultant could work around a pair of bowling shoes. Why bother?
My analogy is a response to Adma's dating a Victoria Secret model analogy. In this case however, its not a fantasy - it could happen.
My analogy is a response to Adma's dating a Victoria Secret model analogy. In this case however, its not a fantasy - it could happen.
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junctionist
Senior Member
Architects are almost always expected to work with what they're given. Many of Toronto's biggest projects that involved demolishing heritage buildings didn't really require the demolition of those buildings. The Registry Building was demolished for a parking garage ramp that could have gone anywhere. The Bank of Toronto Building at King and Bay was replaced by a single storey pavilion--not much different from what was there before. No one would have said 'these Mies van der Rohe buildings would be more enjoyable if this beautiful Beaux Arts bank weren't standing next to them'. Heritage buildings make everything better. Gehry's project will be weaker without the heritage buildings.
jje1000
Senior Member
Exactly. There are projects even more beautiful than this one which have incorporated older buildings into a new unique form. There are textures, forms and materialities that just can't be found in new construction today. To say that Gehry lacks the skills to do the same is an insult to him.
yyzer
Senior Member
Untrue. Actually, Gehry's project will be stronger without the heritage buildings.....hands down....
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
Disagree. Heritage isn't a magic bullet. The TD centre tradeoff was getting the best Miesian ensemble (towers plus pavilion) in the world and sacrificing a very fine, but very commonplace Beaux Arts banking hall. What makes the TD centre so consummately beautiful is the fact that it includes the pavilion form, which necessitated tearing down the old bank of Toronto building. The old bank of Toronto building, nice as it was, does not represent the apex of Beaux Arts design in the way that the TD centre represents the very best of modernism/internationalism.
ushahid
Senior Member
if this project will b rejected the heritage will b left as it is and no one will pay attention to the heritage for a long time and finally the heritage is going to collapse. so it is to give mirvish a green light. it will bring a lot of investment and as well as bring change to the skyline.
junctionist
Senior Member
So far, it looks weaker. The first version showed what looked like a pile of garbage as a podium. The more refined current design shows a massive glazed facade topped with a dramatic curved roof. Is the Anderson Building facade better than Gehry's several sheets of glass as a facade? It is. That's probably what will replace all these heritage buildings if the project goes through: one long wall of glass. If Gehry weaves his complex around the buildings, engaging with them, the end result will be a more sophisticated streetscape than a monotonous wall of glass.
The TD Centre superblock had plenty of space to put the pavilion elsewhere.
DtTO
Active Member
Considering TD Center is probably the most beautiful set of buildings in the city, and considering the fact that it is literally the best Miesian collection in the world, you would need to have a really negative view of Toronto to say you would rather have what was there before. The only people I can see saying that are those who think of Toronto as a regional centre that will never be on anyone's list of "world class" cities.
Heritage buildings don't make everything better. Especially not when they're forcibly grafter onto the facade of something with an entirely different style. I shudder at the thought of one of these warehouses being forced onto something like the Guggenheim in Bilbao.