Toronto First Parliament Site | ?m | ?s

I think that the site has considerable potential for a creative expression - via the War of 1812 connection - of what distinguishes Canada as a political and cultural entity, if we choose to exploit that potential. Little Johnny can kick a soccer ball around there, which is lovely, but he can do that in the icky Underpass Park and in all sorts of other places too. We ought to be able to put our heads together and come up with a way to literally "build on" the historic foundations and associations of this space to express the cultural uniqueness of the site ... though God knows what it would be.
 
Torontovibe said:
Where do you see a "beautiful" public space? What is so beautiful about a sports field? If grass and a few random trees is what you call beautiful, you need to raise your standards. We need a highly designed public square in that location, not just grass and trees.
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But there are already a lot of beautiful public spaces either nearby or being planned nearby. There's the Distillery District's brick courtyard, David Crombie park along the Esplanade, Underpass park, etc. Then there's all the stuff that's going in for the West Donlands and as part of the Waterfront redevelopment. There's not a huge need for more public space here, at least compared to other parts of the city.
 
Toronto has a massive deficit of open public spaces, so I disagree with your logic. King East/West Donlands is the last opportunity to create a good balance of dense low & mid-rise urban fabric counterpointed by generous public spaces, not only for the district but for the make up of the city as a whole.
 
AndreaPalladio said:
As wars go, the War of 1812 was about nothing, changed nothing, and ranks up there with the War of Jenkins Ear and the War of the Austrian Sucession as minor footnotes. Why would we glorify senseless killing and destruction?
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Commemoration isn't the same as glorification. And the War of 1812 was more significant than you give it credit for.

As for whether or not a public space is needed here, are public spaces really needed wherever they pop up? Do European cities really need as many public squares as they do? Of course not. But that doesn't mean they don't benefit their surroundings, or that we shouldn't build them when we have the opportunity and where they make sense.
 
Hipster Duck said:
But there are already a lot of beautiful public spaces either nearby or being planned nearby. There's the Distillery District's brick courtyard, David Crombie park along the Esplanade, Underpass park, etc. Then there's all the stuff that's going in for the West Donlands and as part of the Waterfront redevelopment. There's not a huge need for more public space here, at least compared to other parts of the city.
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None of those spaces provide a proper public square, they are just parkland. A public square with a historical connection to that site is quite different than those other parks. If we use some imagination, we can create a great public space, as well as some needed cultural/institutional buildings. This location is fantastic for a public square, as it links a number of important neighbourhoods. It could become a great central meeting place.

So many of you people have no imagination or ambition at all. You're just so happy with more of the same. God forbid, that Toronto should actually aspire to greatness or even try to better itself. It's sad to constantly see Torontonian's great inferiority complex expressed so often, especially on a site like Urban Toronto. (which should be celebrating and promoting this city)
 
the war of 1812 was the last war on canadian soil. it was the last war that the US fought another country on it's own soil. it was the last war before quite possibly the longest period of peacetime in history. where else can you say that there hasn't been a war IN your country for over 200 years?
 
It was also a war that the American's DIDN'T win. The fact that we were able to keep our country is something to be celebrated and commemorated.
 
neubilder said:
Toronto has a massive deficit of open public spaces, so I disagree with your logic. King East/West Donlands is the last opportunity to create a good balance of dense low & mid-rise urban fabric counterpointed by generous public spaces, not only for the district but for the make up of the city as a whole.
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A "massive deficit"? Let's not go nuts here. For a dense, central city, downtown Toronto has a lot of public space of every kind: greenspace, playgrounds, sports fields, paved public squares. In fact, the ones I just mentioned deal with all of those aspects and none of them is more than 250 meters away. Before we clamour for some more public space, why don't we use the ones we already have.

The historical "significance" of this site is, on the whole, quite minor, whether you think the war of 1812 was a major thing or not (I happen to think it was). If you want to celebrate or pay homage to the war of 1812 there already is Fort York - which is getting a brand, spanking new visitors centre - as well as a whole host of other forts across Ontario that were involved far more than this parliament house.
 
/\ Why would anybody argue AGAINST a public square, park, or similar amenity? This I can not comprehend.

When claiming Toronto has "a lot of public space of every kind", what is your frame of reference?
 
I'm arguing against it because it costs a lot of money to build and maintain - public squares aren't free - and there are plenty of public spaces nearby. You want a playground? Go to Sackville playground or Underpass park. You want a public square? Go to the Distillery District's entirely-pedestrianized red brick spaces. You want to play ball? Go to Moss Park or David Crombie park. All of these public spaces are within a 5 minute walk of where this condo will go up.

My frame of reference for Toronto having a lot of public space is every other city in the world. You can't walk 5 minutes without encountering some form of public space in our downtown and most of it is underutilized.
 
Hipster Duck said:
I'm arguing against it because it costs a lot of money to build and maintain - public squares aren't free - and there are plenty of public spaces nearby. You want a playground? Go to Sackville playground or Underpass park. You want a public square? Go to the Distillery District's entirely-pedestrianized red brick spaces. You want to play ball? Go to Moss Park or David Crombie park. All of these public spaces are within a 5 minute walk of where this condo will go up.

My frame of reference for Toronto having a lot of public space is every other city in the world. You can't walk 5 minutes without encountering some form of public space in our downtown and most of it is underutilized.
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Toronto has a lot of public squares? Where? Besides Nathan Phillips Square and Dundas Square, what other proper, paved, public squares are there? That park they call a square, beside Metro Hall, is not really a square. It's actually a badly designed park, that has very little going for it. So where are all these great public squares because I'd really like to go and take some pictures?
 
Torontovibe said:
Toronto has a lot of public squares? Where? Besides Nathan Phillips Square and Dundas Square, what other proper, paved, public squares are there? That park they call a square, beside Metro Hall, is not really a square. It's actually a badly designed park, that has very little going for it. So where are all these great public squares because I'd really like to go and take some pictures?
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Within the downtown core we have the following public squares:

NPS
Dundas square
Trinity Square
Market Square (St. Lawrence)
Yorkville Park
College Park
Scrivener Square
Berczy Park
Sherbourne Common
Practically the whole Waterfront between Bay and Spadina
the entirely-pedestrianized Distillery District (5 minutes away)
There's also this square inside David Crombie park that's just around the corner.

That's just off the top of my head. I could probably come up with more.

Not to mention all of the private-public squares created by office towers and condos that dot the city like the one at the B/A centre, CCW, TD Centre, outside the CBC HQ or all those mewses in Yorkville.

We don't have a shortage of squares. We have a surplus of squares, and we hardly know what to do with them. Building a landscaped public space of the size most people want here is neither cheap (it probably will cost about $5 million of taxpayer money) nor necessary - there are perfectly good squares literally around two corners: at David Crombie park and in the Distillery district.

Finally, I don't see the corner of Parliament and Front making a particularly good square. What reason is there to congregate there? There already are great public spaces nearby that are established and the population density isn't high enough (and it never will be if we dedicated that land to building a square).
 
Hipster Duck said:
Within the downtown core we have the following public squares:

NPS
Dundas square
Trinity Square
Market Square (St. Lawrence)
Yorkville Park
College Park
Scrivener Square
Berczy Park
Sherbourne Common
Practically the whole Waterfront between Bay and Spadina
the entirely-pedestrianized Distillery District (5 minutes away)
There's also this square inside David Crombie park that's just around the corner.

That's just off the top of my head. I could probably come up with more.

Not to mention all of the private-public squares created by office towers and condos that dot the city like the one at the B/A centre, CCW, TD Centre, outside the CBC HQ or all those mewses in Yorkville.

We don't have a shortage of squares. We have a surplus of squares, and we hardly know what to do with them. Building a landscaped public space of the size most people want here is neither cheap (it probably will cost about $5 million of taxpayer money) nor necessary - there are perfectly good squares literally around two corners: at David Crombie park and in the Distillery district.

Finally, I don't see the corner of Parliament and Front making a particularly good square. What reason is there to congregate there? There already are great public spaces nearby that are established and the population density isn't high enough (and it never will be if we dedicated that land to building a square).
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Only a couple of these are grand squares that are really exposed to the city and where people can gather and hold events and any such other conglomerations. Most are out of the way, tucked away and serve primarily as parks:

NPS - Yes
Dundas square - Yes.
Trinity Square - Partly a park, small, totally unexposed to the public.
Market Square - Nice but really feels like more of a laneway than a public square.
Yorkville Park - Impractical and unusable because someone decided to litter the entire thing with trees. I can't remember the last time I saw people actually hanging out there and having a fun time save for sitting on a planter to smoke a cigarette, eat a hasty lunch or read a book. So really, it's more of a park. Not that I mind that however, as I feel it suits the area more than a square would.
College Park - More of a park, totally unexposed to the public, hemmed in by town homes and building vents, and altogether awful.
Scrivener Square - I wouldn't call this downtown, but regardless, it's essentially a small cul-de-sac with some nice landscaping.
Berczy Park - A park.
Sherbourne Common - A park.
Waterfront - I guess, but it's kind of lacking a central space where the public can really gather. So much of the space there seems like little more than nicely landscaped gaps between buildings, with a couple planters and benches.
Distillery District - Yes
Inside David Crombie park - Yes, though it could do without the fence. Too bad it's not in more of a highly trafficked area.

All those private-public spaces created by condos and office buildings are nice and all, but they're hardly grand civic spaces. Again, they're nice places to sit and eat lunch or have a cigarette, but nobody is gathering there. I'd love to see more squares like this one. I'm also really looking forward to the square at King & John.

If I can't imagine a given public space being appropriate for some kind of event, display or protest, I find it difficult to really consider it a public square. That's a necessary but insufficient ingredient.

The space adjacent to Metro Hall could be such a space, and a spectacular one at that, if only it were transformed into a square rather than an underused park.
 
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