Paleo
Active Member
That's pretty much true for anything outside of downtown. That's why the forecast volumes for TYSSE, RHC, and Sheppard look so bad.
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That's pretty much true for anything outside of downtown. That's why the forecast volumes for TYSSE, RHC, and Sheppard look so bad.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The three extensions you mentioned would all be busier than Eglinton West. Eglinton East is another thing (especially once you dump half the SRT riders onto it), but the difference for Eglinton West is that there's nothing there. No jobs, no schools, no malls, few large concentrations of people, very little prospects for redevelopment, and maybe, what, 1,500 people per hour now on the bus? There's only so many people that will be diverted from other routes (and of course, no mention is ever made of GO integration for areas like Rexdale) and the 'airport market' is much smaller than it seems. But it's all moot because Eglinton got funded, though the line may never actually reach the airport, anyway.
rbt
Senior Member
The odds of Eglinton and the Mississauga BRT meeting are pretty good shortly after both are open and running (2020+). It will be a fairly obvious network gap which is relatively cheap to fill; and 2 governments down the road after our upcoming austerity period.
If LRT is taken west to meet with the BRT then hitting the airport is a very cheap extension of that.
I'm not expecting funding for anything significant other than SOGR for transit between 2013 and 2020 unless the Liberals somehow implement a hail-mary of road tolls or a regional sales tax (other than what has already been announced as funded of course).
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scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Well, it is another 10-12km or so and several billion dollars to bring it all the way to the airport, so it's not a trivial piece of infrastructure. This is Toronto, after all...the odds don't always favour "this is obvious, therefore it'll get built soon." Eglinton as it is now is still a long line with multiple phasing options should additional segments of it be delayed and that could stretch the timeframe even further.
Paleo
Active Member
1,500pph is roughly what the 85 and 190 add up to so...
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
So? You listed three extensions, remember. I didn't generate the forecasts of the past few years, so take the issue up with them. Although, the 85+190 combo might run thorugh a lower modal share area than Eglinton West (more room to grow), and it also has, you know, stuff along it. The city is planning for almost 9000 people at Warden & Sheppard, for instance.
1,500 per hour seems pretty standard for Toronto, where most major arterial routes see 30,000+ riders a day. Eglinton West isn't special or significant. It's just funded.
raquel
Banned
Cold Clear Logic says that putting LRT on Shepperd is an act of racism by liberal whites. Also proposes that Harper should fund the subway extension in return for non union contracts and private sector involvement, and then wants a casino builder to put up a casino near Scarboro Town Center and fund part of the subway...
http://www.coldclearlogic.com/2012/03/19/unwashed-minority-masses-roar-in-toronto/
http://www.coldclearlogic.com/2012/03/19/waterfront-toronto-versus-scarborough-transit-and-casinos/
http://www.coldclearlogic.com/2012/03/18/harper-a-path-forward-for-toronto-transit/
http://www.coldclearlogic.com/2012/03/19/unwashed-minority-masses-roar-in-toronto/
http://www.coldclearlogic.com/2012/03/19/waterfront-toronto-versus-scarborough-transit-and-casinos/
http://www.coldclearlogic.com/2012/03/18/harper-a-path-forward-for-toronto-transit/
euges720
New Member
Can someone explain to me how a LRT is different from a streetcar?
Now, I've been to practically every major city in Europe and every minor one in between, and I'm a fan of public transit. I've been on LRTs, streetcars, trams, anything in between. But pro-LRT people keep saying that a LRT is different from a streetcar, but I'm finding it hard to see the difference. A LRT will be much nicer, bigger, and more modern, and it will have its own lane... but that's what we have (dedicated lanes) on the Spadina and Lakeshore streetcars as well, except the cars are much older, of course. These two lines stop at every light, even though they're on a dedicated lane. So what's the difference?
Side note: I'm on the fence in the LRT/subway debate, if you can call it one. I would love it if Toronto had a subway network as extensive as NYC or London, but on the other hand, given the budget constraint and maximal utility, I see the benefit of a LRT plan, I possibly support it a bit more than a subway. But I really don't get it when people say LRTs are different from streetcars. Please explain your thought.
Now, I've been to practically every major city in Europe and every minor one in between, and I'm a fan of public transit. I've been on LRTs, streetcars, trams, anything in between. But pro-LRT people keep saying that a LRT is different from a streetcar, but I'm finding it hard to see the difference. A LRT will be much nicer, bigger, and more modern, and it will have its own lane... but that's what we have (dedicated lanes) on the Spadina and Lakeshore streetcars as well, except the cars are much older, of course. These two lines stop at every light, even though they're on a dedicated lane. So what's the difference?
Side note: I'm on the fence in the LRT/subway debate, if you can call it one. I would love it if Toronto had a subway network as extensive as NYC or London, but on the other hand, given the budget constraint and maximal utility, I see the benefit of a LRT plan, I possibly support it a bit more than a subway. But I really don't get it when people say LRTs are different from streetcars. Please explain your thought.
a0th
New Member
streetcars run in traffic for all or a portion of their route, lrt is separate from other traffic for the entirety of the line except in rare situations.
raquel
Banned
SO like Spadina line from Lakeshore to Bloor, except with more modern low floor vehicles.
It's ok to have some LRT but only after a big subway network is built. Look at London: 400 km subway network first, then a bit of LRT. Same with Paris, big 220 km subway first then throw in 30 km of LRT.
northto
New Member
Paraphrasing Steve Munro, there are two aspects of the Spadina line that differentiate it from a modern LRT line of the type being discussed on Eg / Shep / Finch:
- Stop spacing: the classical streetcar concept we are used to (with vehicles running in mixed traffic) is slower than a modern LRT lrt line because of the LRT's separate right of way *and* because LRT stops are spaced further apart; plans for LRTs put stops some 800-1000m apart (i.e. major arterial intersections only, similar to a subway), theoretically yielding a maximum 5-6 min walk between stations (assuming a walking speed of 80m/min)
- Transit priority: TTC engineers, line management and city officials have not been particularly successful in applying signal transit priority at intersections on the Spadina line, hence streetcars wait more than they should in a modern LRT application.
While these details may seem trivial in comparison to very visible differences like built form (i.e. ROWs) and vehicles that look similar to streetcars, they are not. It is the sum of these factors that differentiates streetcar from modern LRT.
Taking stop spacing and transit priority into account, the closest approximation to the new LRT lines that is currently operating in Toronto is the 501 Queen line on the Queensway strech west of Roncesvalles and south of High Park.
- Stop spacing: the classical streetcar concept we are used to (with vehicles running in mixed traffic) is slower than a modern LRT lrt line because of the LRT's separate right of way *and* because LRT stops are spaced further apart; plans for LRTs put stops some 800-1000m apart (i.e. major arterial intersections only, similar to a subway), theoretically yielding a maximum 5-6 min walk between stations (assuming a walking speed of 80m/min)
- Transit priority: TTC engineers, line management and city officials have not been particularly successful in applying signal transit priority at intersections on the Spadina line, hence streetcars wait more than they should in a modern LRT application.
While these details may seem trivial in comparison to very visible differences like built form (i.e. ROWs) and vehicles that look similar to streetcars, they are not. It is the sum of these factors that differentiates streetcar from modern LRT.
Taking stop spacing and transit priority into account, the closest approximation to the new LRT lines that is currently operating in Toronto is the 501 Queen line on the Queensway strech west of Roncesvalles and south of High Park.
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andrewpmk
Senior Member
Bus ridership is not indicative of potential demand. Eglinton West is probably the worst congested road in the city. An Eglinton subway will take people off Eglinton, Bloor-Danforth subway, and 401 and connect to the airport. There is massive potential demand here.
Exactly. In order to determine what type of potential ridership actually exists, you need to look at:
-How many people are taking parallel routes who would switch if a rapid transit option were offered (for example, how many more people would be taking the Dupont bus if the Bloor-Danforth Subway wasn't a block away).
-How many people don't take that route because of the poor quality of service. This is pretty hard to quantify, because it needs to look at how many people "would take it, but just don't wanna right now".
Justin10000
Banned
No one is going to alter their commute just because a rapid transit line is built a block away. Finch Riders are not going switch to a Sheppard Subway because it's a subway.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Mammoliti said that he supports subways on Finch. This is the first time I've ever heard a Finch subway mentioned. This is just another example of empty transit promises by Ford and Co.
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