News   Jul 15, 2024
 749     3 
News   Jul 15, 2024
 907     1 
News   Jul 15, 2024
 634     0 

Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

I am a component of longer spaces between stops as I had mentioned many times that when I used to live in the suburbs I would walk quite a distance to get to the finch express bus versus taking the midland bus which was slower. However a few years ago when I kept on harping on that people kept bringing up how much wheel trans costs and why was I not thinking of elderly people and that if it was too far apart parallel bus service would be needed which costs the city money. Basically as much as I argued for only stops at major intersections there was a large group that would vilify that request and point out that extra stops are not really adding that much time. perhaps times have changed. I have always been pro lrt and on the surface since I would like to see as much transit be built as possible for the least amount. Where my problems were are the stop spacing. It is quite a walk if you are between say kipling and islington but on the other hand I drive that stretch all the time and 99% of the people are getting on at kipling or islington, not in between. The same can be said between islington and royal york.
 
Do not forget that the mid arterial stops could be a upon request stop. If no one requests a stop, the light rail vehicle may not stop, unless there is someone waiting at the stop. The mid arterial stop would be at grade, reducing the cost to just the concrete and shelters.
 
Do not forget that the mid arterial stops could be a upon request stop. If no one requests a stop, the light rail vehicle may not stop, unless there is someone waiting at the stop. The mid arterial stop would be at grade, reducing the cost to just the concrete and shelters.
I can't stand stop request especially when you stop on one side of the intersection and then the bell rings for someone to get off on the other side of the intersection. When I lived at midland and finch originally the bus would take 30 mins basically stopping only at major intersections. By the time I moved away that same trip was about a hour because the bus stopped at every stop for one or two people.
 
I can't stand stop request especially when you stop on one side of the intersection and then the bell rings for someone to get off on the other side of the intersection. When I lived at midland and finch originally the bus would take 30 mins basically stopping only at major intersections. By the time I moved away that same trip was about a hour because the bus stopped at every stop for one or two people.

Which is why the TTC is slowly removing redundant stops. Unless some single person (NIMBY) objects, and they leave it in.
 
If Jane is proposed for an LRT, it's ridership must be high enough to warrant a stop. 1 extra stop at the airport (Convair or Silver Dart) doesn't bother me that much - especially if the feds pay some. Maybe another stop at T3 is needed though - since the link train can't handle much more.
I think this list is pretty good though:
Pearson -> Renforth Gateway -> Martin Grove -> Kipling -> Islington -> Royal York -> Scarlette -> Jane -> Mount Dennis (9 stops total)

I was okay with eliminating Jane on the basis that it is very close to Mount Dennis, and it's not that much of a jaunt for the Jane bus to go on Weston then back to Jane. Also on the basis that this is what Jane/Eglinton looks like, surrounded by nothing but park space:

upload_2017-10-17_8-35-14.png


Is $280M correct - maybe in 2008 dollars. I would have guessed it was well into the mid $350M's.
The only reason to spend $5+ Billion on a central core and use LRT is if multiple lines will share the tunnel. Transit City consider a full build-out of many LRT lines - but in no location was branching (interlining) even considered). In the West, maybe 1 branch could have been along Dixon and the other along Eglinton West. In the East, maybe 1 branch up to STC and another along Eglinton and Kingston Road. But since the grade-separation ended at Brentcliffe, I guess 1 branch would have to be Eglinton and other through Edwards Gardens park and along Lawrence? There is no doubt this was poorly thought out.

It's hard to argue with this. Not sure if any more buildings are planned. Maybe the Airport Link train needs be extended to serve these more minor stops (and also change to self-propelled trains so more than 2 can fit.

Some of my favourite fantasy schemes have a branch going up Jane or Don Mills. But considering the failure of the TTC's interlining experiment with the 100% grade-separated subway lines in the 1960s, I wonder how well this could actually be pulled off, operationally. Metrolinx had announced that the tunnel section would be running on ATC but the surface sections would be human-driven.

I don't think you would see many more buildings for the section near the airport, and generally you wouldn't want too much development near the airport because of the airplane noise, tall buildings in the flight paths, etc. There's a reason that the current area is all car rentals, airport hotels, and parking lots. I think it would make more sense to serve those by the Link train if needed: we don't need our $10 billion rapid transit line to function as a shuttle for the airport rent-a-cars. But there are also some low-density office parks north of the 401 that could maybe be better serviced by buses that stop at International instead of at Renforth, so I would accept one intermediate stop (but certainly not 3).

Do not forget that the mid arterial stops could be a upon request stop. If no one requests a stop, the light rail vehicle may not stop, unless there is someone waiting at the stop. The mid arterial stop would be at grade, reducing the cost to just the concrete and shelters.

The problem with request stops is that they introduce a certain amount of uncertainty into the schedule and increase the potential for bunching. And the fact that stops are easy to add causes them to multiply since everyone wants a stop at their front door, which is what happened when the Spadina streetcar was introduced.

In general, in a lot of these debates about stop spacing (and the problem with this EA is that) we are looking at a single trunk of a single line at a time. So in this EA, it may look like 17 stops between Jane and the airport is reasonable. But in the context of the entire Eglinton line, and in the context of Toronto's entire rapid transit system where people may want to be able to travel to point B on Eglinton from point A (say at Yonge/St. Clair), the cumulative additional time from the stops is much greater than the time saved by the local who has to walk an additional 5 minutes. Additional stops may make the line more useful for someone living near the new stop but reduces the effectiveness of the transit system as a whole.

Ideally, we want to be maximizing the number of jobs and people within a 45-minute "isochrone" map of public transit - a map of where it is possible to travel to within 45 minutes by public transit.
 

Attachments

  • upload_2017-10-17_8-35-14.png
    upload_2017-10-17_8-35-14.png
    1 MB · Views: 260
The 35 Jane bus route has a daily ridership of 32,000 (#11) and 195 Jane Rocket bus route has a ridership of 13,000 (#41). Add them together(45,000) and they are just under the 32 Eglinton West daily ridership of 48,000 (#2). Most of the busy at the Eglinton & Jane intersection comes from transfers. Transfers would increase with the Crosstown LRT. From link.
 
the Jane bus will run to Mount Dennis to encourage transfers once the LRT opens. That is going to quite a large detour - a Jane stop on the Eglinton West line would be really valuable for Jane Bus riders who do not wish to transfer as it would save them that time traveled over to Weston Road.
 
the Jane bus will run to Mount Dennis to encourage transfers once the LRT opens. That is going to quite a large detour - a Jane stop on the Eglinton West line would be really valuable for Jane Bus riders who do not wish to transfer as it would save them that time traveled over to Weston Road.
I remember as a kid, before Eglinton even existed west of Weston (other than a stub) when the Jane 35 went across Lambton, then up Guestville, and looped at Weston Rd. There was no Jane bus north of Lambton, and the valley was still the most fertile land in Ontario, even more so than Holland Marsh. Mostly Dutch and some Chinese truck farmers.

I don't see the wisdom, now that everything has changed, of reverting back to routing the 35 via Mt Dennis.
 
The 35 Jane bus route has a daily ridership of 32,000 (#11) and 195 Jane Rocket bus route has a ridership of 13,000 (#41). Add them together(45,000) and they are just under the 32 Eglinton West daily ridership of 48,000 (#2). Most of the busy at the Eglinton & Jane intersection comes from transfers. Transfers would increase with the Crosstown LRT. From link.

Isn't Jane Rocket ridership going to plummet once York University subway extension opens though?
 
So according to google maps, we would be looking at ~5 minute detour, which is a bit much. I hate dogs' legs and milk runs in transit; buses are normally slow enough as it is.

upload_2017-10-17_17-51-59.png


upload_2017-10-17_17-52-33.png


It's also 1 km between Jane and the rail corridor.

So it's fair to put Jane back on the list of essential stops.
 

Attachments

  • upload_2017-10-17_17-51-59.png
    upload_2017-10-17_17-51-59.png
    494.1 KB · Views: 410
  • upload_2017-10-17_17-52-33.png
    upload_2017-10-17_17-52-33.png
    469.5 KB · Views: 418
From the latest report (see link), I looked closely at the roadways. I asked them at the meeting that it looks like the buses will use the road leading to Eglinton Avenue as an exit only (judging by the lane arrows). They say, "Yes", that the buses may have to use Black Creek Drive and Photography Drive as an entrance because the other road is too narrow for two way bus traffic. That road would only be used by the buses to egress to Eglinton Avenue West.

Mt. Dennis.jpg


This could mean a big increase in travel time for buses to enter the Mt. Dennis Station bus terminal. It will not be 5+ minutes for the Jane buses, but more like 8+ minutes. Judging by the traffic jams currently on Black Creek Drive, it'll be more like 10+ minutes.

They should consider widening that road from Eglinton, to reduce travel time for the buses.
 

Attachments

  • Mt. Dennis.jpg
    Mt. Dennis.jpg
    118 KB · Views: 537
Last edited:
Isn't Jane Rocket ridership going to plummet once York University subway extension opens though?
No. People taking the 35/195 aren't destine to be downtown. Majority of the ridership is actually between Finch and Eglinton. Only 10% or so use it to York U and those students won't take the bus from the west end eastbound to the Spadina line just to have it run NW to York U. I don't expect the 35/195 ridership to change much.

So according to google maps, we would be looking at ~5 minute detour, which is a bit much. I hate dogs' legs and milk runs in transit; buses are normally slow enough as it is.

View attachment 124412

View attachment 124413

It's also 1 km between Jane and the rail corridor.

So it's fair to put Jane back on the list of essential stops.
Weston Rd is really bad in PM rush hour. Jane is already bad enough. Putting the two together makes it even worst. That section of Jane is really smooth and to remove that with a detour makes the route worst than it is already. They should definitely keep the Jane stop and build a bus terminal there. Keep the 35 split at Eglinton and run the 195 down to Bloor. This will fix up all the reliability problems south of Eglinton while running slightly less buses as ridership is lower. Even without a stop, there will still be delays from that intersection. The signal timing is just too difficult for them to give total transit priority without railway gate barriers.
 
IIRC it will not go via weston road, but via Eglinton both there and back. And it goes to the Photography Drive bus terminal, not the pedestrian entrance to Mount Dennis station at Weston Road.
 
IIRC it will not go via weston road, but via Eglinton both there and back. And it goes to the Photography Drive bus terminal, not the pedestrian entrance to Mount Dennis station at Weston Road.

To get to Photography Drive, the buses will have to travel east to Black Creek Drive, turn right onto Black Creek Drive to get to Photography Drive, turning right to get to the bus terminal at Mount Dennis Station.

Exiting the bus terminal, the buses would travel south to the first street (Keelesdale Road), turning left they'll then turn left onto the former two-way street that would now be a one-way street north. There would be two lanes, one for right turns and one for left turns. Buses would be allowed to turn left to go westbound on Eglinton on a new traffic light, other motorists (non-transit) would only allowed turn right or eastbound.

Screenshot-2017-10-18 Google Maps.jpg

mt-dennis-jpg.124419


Unless they widen Keelesdale Road for an extra lane for the buses to enter, keeping it as a two-way street. Hopefully, they will widen it.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot-2017-10-18 Google Maps.jpg
    Screenshot-2017-10-18 Google Maps.jpg
    76.3 KB · Views: 247
Last edited:
At $280 million/km, we already are getting a light rail line at the cost of a subway on Eglinton.

I think that's still quite a bit cheaper than a full-fledged subway. SSE is pushing $500 million/km, despite having no intermediate stations and only one topological challenge (Highland Creek).

Furthermore, if Eglinton West is built mostly on surface, the average cost should go down.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top