Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Palma]

Making the Eglinton Crosstown private is crazy. If its part of the TTC it should be run by the TTC. Perhaps Metrolinx should be privatized so those employees loose their high salary jobs - perhaps then metrolinx could be run more efficently - say more like a privately run business.

 

[Mapleson]

Making the Eglinton Crosstown private is crazy. If its part of the TTC it should be run by the TTC. Perhaps Metrolinx should be privatized so those employees loose their high salary jobs - perhaps then metrolinx could be run more efficently - say more like a privately run business.

Are you suggesting that consultants are cheap? If you think you'd save money by paying them each $250/hour to sit around a table and talk about it, then go right ahead.

Privatizing Eglinton is maybe the best way forward for Ford. No one wants to touch a privatized Sheppard, but Eglinton will actually have some ridership. It could still be integrated into the TTC, just as a premium service or with City revenue redirected to private partners. If someone is willing to pay to build a subway, they should be entitled to part revenue for it's lifespan (~50 years). If it's the provience, it's a tax burden. If it's a private entity, it's only a revenue drain. The second is the easier political sell.

 

[k10ery]

Are you suggesting that consultants are cheap? If you think you'd save money by paying them each $250/hour to sit around a table and talk about it, then go right ahead.

Privatizing Eglinton is maybe the best way forward for Ford. No one wants to touch a privatized Sheppard, but Eglinton will actually have some ridership. It could still be integrated into the TTC, just as a premium service or with City revenue redirected to private partners. If someone is willing to pay to build a subway, they should be entitled to part revenue for it's lifespan (~50 years). If it's the provience, it's a tax burden. If it's a private entity, it's only a revenue drain. The second is the easier political sell.

When oh when will people get it that public-private partnership does not mean privatization, and it does NOT mean there will be no government subsidy. Far from it. The main reason to choose a P3 is to try to limit construction cost overruns and of course union busting. If Bob Kinnear had kept his mouth shut in the last two weeks, I wonder if we would even have had this "leak" now.

 

[gweed123]

Are you suggesting that consultants are cheap? If you think you'd save money by paying them each $250/hour to sit around a table and talk about it, then go right ahead.

Privatizing Eglinton is maybe the best way forward for Ford. No one wants to touch a privatized Sheppard, but Eglinton will actually have some ridership. It could still be integrated into the TTC, just as a premium service or with City revenue redirected to private partners. If someone is willing to pay to build a subway, they should be entitled to part revenue for it's lifespan (~50 years). If it's the provience, it's a tax burden. If it's a private entity, it's only a revenue drain. The second is the easier political sell.

Ottawa is doing a DBFM with the OLRT. The contract will stipulate that the PPP consortium will be required to conduct any maintenance done in the first 15 years. It will be owned by the City of Ottawa, but part of OC Transpo revenue will go towards paying the consortium. Given that it will reduce OC Transpo's operating expenses by about $100 million/year, those funds can go towards paying down the OLRT. I would imagine a similar arrangement would be suitable for Eglinton, given that the projected ridership is only a few thousand pphpd lower than what the OLRT is.

 

[Mapleson]

When oh when will people get it that public-private partnership does not mean privatization, and it does NOT mean there will be no government subsidy. Far from it. The main reason to choose a P3 is to try to limit construction cost overruns and of course union busting. If Bob Kinnear had kept his mouth shut in the last two weeks, I wonder if we would even have had this "leak" now.

I realise the difference between P3 and privatization. However, I was responding to Palma's comment "Perhaps Metrolinx should be privatized", which is privatization.

Ottawa is doing a DBFM with the OLRT. The contract will stipulate that the PPP consortium will be required to conduct any maintenance done in the first 15 years. It will be owned by the City of Ottawa, but part of OC Transpo revenue will go towards paying the consortium. Given that it will reduce OC Transpo's operating expenses by about $100 million/year, those funds can go towards paying down the OLRT. I would imagine a similar arrangement would be suitable for Eglinton, given that the projected ridership is only a few thousand pphpd lower than what the OLRT is.

This is a model that I support. Full lifecycle cost approaches mean less burden in the long run.

 

[BMO]

I think Veolia Transportation operates the VIVA system in York Region separate from the rest of the system. When YRT goes on strike, VIVA doesn't necessarily go on strike and vice-versa. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ssiguy2]

Well if the PPP partner agrees to contribute around 25% of the Eglinton line it would get Ford a good chunk of his Sheppard built.
The good thing with PPP is that they build things on time and on budget which is something the TTC seems incapable of doing. They will not try to make the line into a union labour make-work project............the lowest bidder will get the contract unlike when the City builds something where all labour must be at union rates. The Canada Line had a guarantee of the price having to come in budget and any cost overruns would have to be covered 100% of the PPP partner. None of this "escalated dollars" crap. the contract is signed and that's it.
Translink sets the service levels not the partner. As far as this idea that the Canada Line was built under capacity that had NOTHING to do with the PPP but everything to do with Campbell who stated the line only had to have a capacity of 15,000 pphpd.
Did they cheap out on the stations......yes but again that was because Campbell didn't want longer stations or full escalators. In other words the PPP built the line according to the government requests. The stations are rather bland but clean, pleasant and functional. None of this Taj Majal stations like the Spadina ext which is costing a fortune.
PPP can work as well or as badly as the TTC wants them to. Do they cost more.............yes but only due to having to pay the partner back but over the long term they can save a small fortune by getting working capitol now as opposed to having to wait 20 years til you have the money by which time construction costs have tripled. Vancouver, despite the Canada Line's short comings, manged to build a 20km automated metro system for just $2.4 billion of which 12km was tunnel including under False Creek, thru downtown, and two very large bridges over the Fraser River.

 

[leopetr]

I think Veolia Transportation operates the VIVA system in York Region separate from the rest of the system. When YRT goes on strike, VIVA doesn't necessarily go on strike and vice-versa. Correct me if I'm wrong.

YRT subcontracts its bus driving to five different companies. It helps compartmentalize the strikes, but labour compensation rates are similar to what the TTC pays.

 

[Amy Rose]

It could still be integrated into the TTC, just as a premium service or with City revenue redirected to private partners.

So we will have to pay double fare to get on the Eglinton LRT if it goes PPP.... Wouldn't it be a better time to start crowding the Lawrence West and St Clair routes

 

[ShonTron]

I don't think it will ever be a premium service. I'm 99% sure it will be like the Canada Line in Vancouver, which is also a design-build-finance-maintain project. It will seem integrated to the average user.

 

[gweed123]

I don't think it will ever be a premium service. I'm 99% sure it will be like the Canada Line in Vancouver, which is also a design-build-finance-maintain project. It will seem integrated to the average user.

Exactly. The money for the private consortium would come from general fare revenue, probably a guaranteed amount based on the details of the contracts. After a certain amount of time (either a fixed year amount or however long it takes for the consortium to get their money back + whatever extra was agreed to), the ownership of the line would be 100% transferred to Metrolinx. Just to clarify, Metrolinx would still technically "own" the line even before that point, but the consortium would still have a vested interest in it. Much like a shareholder has a stake in a company.

I find there's a lot of misconceptions on here about PPP. The most likely scenario is that the PPP is set up to help cover some of the capital costs of construction, in exchange for on-going revenue generated from that infrastructure. As long as the ROI is good for the consortium, they'll have the cash to pony up to build it. It won't be a "premium service", it won't be owned by the consortium, it'll be completely transparent to the average user (minus the fact that the stations will actually be kept in a state of good repair, because most of these contracts have a maintenance period built into them).

 

[BMO]

YRT subcontracts its bus driving to five different companies. It helps compartmentalize the strikes, but labour compensation rates are similar to what the TTC pays.

Thanks for clearing this up for me, cheers.

 

[ladyscraper]

Are they still planning on starting construction this summer?

 

[Palma]

Are you suggesting that consultants are cheap? If you think you'd save money by paying them each $250/hour to sit around a table and talk about it, then go right ahead.

Privatizing Eglinton is maybe the best way forward for Ford. No one wants to touch a privatized Sheppard, but Eglinton will actually have some ridership. It could still be integrated into the TTC, just as a premium service or with City revenue redirected to private partners. If someone is willing to pay to build a subway, they should be entitled to part revenue for it's lifespan (~50 years). If it's the provience, it's a tax burden. If it's a private entity, it's only a revenue drain. The second is the easier political sell.

I have no idea what you are trying to say when you talk about consultants. It was suppose to be a tongue in cheek - those employees at Metrolinx I am sure are getting paid a pretty penny so perhaps their jobs should be privatized. How could the Eglinton line be a premium service when its not even a subway plus on some of these forums I have road that Metrolinx wants to run the LRT every 6 min in rush hour and 12 min non-rush hour. That's premium service?

 

[Mapleson]

I have no idea what you are trying to say when you talk about consultants. It was suppose to be a tongue in cheek - those employees at Metrolinx I am sure are getting paid a pretty penny so perhaps their jobs should be privatized.

I was trying to say that privizing jobs doesn't have as much as an effect on the bottom line as improving efficiency.

The 6 min/12 min service headways was just one of the screen lines used in modeling.

One scenario that will be modelled is based on a 3-car LRV train running every 6 minutes at peak, 12 at off peak. This scenario was mentioned at one of a series of public meetings about the Crosstown that has taken place along the route since April 26. This possibility does not constitute a final decision about frequency of service along the route.

How could the Eglinton line be a premium service when its not even a subway plus on some of these forums I have road that Metrolinx wants to run the LRT every 6 min in rush hour and 12 min non-rush hour. That's premium service?

Historically (1921-1974), extra fares applied by time or distance. Eglinton will have PRESTO machines for the length of the corridor, so it has the option to be a premium service, whether flat-fee, distance-based, or zonal-based (no time-based charges were set-up as part of the initial Presto rollout). I suggested the City should use that option to cover over some of the excessive costs for Eglinton so that we might afford the next decade of construction a bit sooner.