Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[TheTigerMaster]

You are wondering why a project that will involve underground tunneling in one of the most dense areas in all of Canada will take a long time to get started?

The amount of planning that is required to do such a thing, with tons of high rise foundations, unmarked utilities, enwave pipers, etc is going to be a huge undertaking in itself.

The Crosstown LRT took just four years to get from initial proposal to construction, even with all the political obstructionism.

The DRL which is 30% shorter, but running through more challenging areas of the city, is taking 11 years to go from proposal to construction.

I get that the DRL is more complex, but it taking 11 years to start construction, 3x longer than the Crosstown, seems absurd to me.

I mean, we figured out how to get men on the moon three years quicker than it’s taking us to figure out how to even begin digging a tunnel through Downtown Toronto.

As was suggested earlier, I believe it’s more likely that the delay is because the local construction industry can’t handle all these simultaneous projects, and not because the construction sites are so challenging that it’ll actually take 11 years to plan it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

2025 completion is breakneck speed compared to the DRL which, for reasons unknown to me, won’t be starting construction until at least 2025

The mandate from city hall was to have it completed at the same time as the current eglinton project, so 2021.

However I don't think thats going to happen.

City Hall wanted Eglinton West and East completed for 2021, coinciding with the opening of the crosstown.

This would be amazing if it had larger than an infinitesimally small chance of happening. Even a 2031 opening date is quite unlikely, but who knows, maybe funding will come "fully funded" by the province in the 2022 election (assuming there are announcements for the 2018 election).

The big difference is that they have much shorter construction timelines than a subway - only 5 years or so. Finch is going to start full construction next spring, and will open in 2022.

That means that if these could get to tender in about 3 years from today, you could see completion in 2025 or so.

so some think we could see completion by 2025 which even i think is slow,,, anyone want to estimate how much time it will take if we make this thing an election issue demanding 100% grade separation?

They need to try for 2023. I know they're (rightly) afraid UPX will be done for, but this connection is needed.

 

[Leo_Chan]

They need to try for 2023. I know they're (rightly) afraid UPX will be done for, but this connection is needed.

2023 construction start or opening?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

2023 construction start or opening?

opening.

 

[sixrings]

Isn't the ea and design process done. Above ground lrt is supposed to be relatively easy and quick to install. The only reason for a delay is deferred funding

 

[micheal_can]

Can someone tell me what the differences between the EC and the streetcar system are? As far as I can tell, they are virtually the same, except for rail gauge and cars used.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It’s has its own protected lane, signal priority at all intersections, higher vehicle capacity, lower stop spacing, and will operate on the surface about twice as fast as downtown streetcars.

 

[micheal_can]

It’s has its own protected lane, signal priority at all intersections, higher vehicle capacity, lower stop spacing, and will operate on the surface about twice as fast as downtown streetcars.

So, what is the difference between Spadina, Queen's Quay and St Clair?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So, what is the difference between Spadina, Queen's Quay and St Clair?

They don’t have signal priority at all intersections, significantly lower vehicle capacity, more frequent stop spacing and operate about half as fast as the Crosstown LRT (about 22 km/h vs 11)

 

[robmausser]

They don’t have signal priority at all intersections, significantly lower vehicle capacity, more frequent stop spacing and operate about half as fast as the Crosstown LRT (about 22 km/h vs 11)

Also, the streetcars downtown are "stop on demand" with much closer stops, much like a bus on rails. The LRT will operate more like a subway. Further spacing of stops, (even more so underground) plus they are mandatory stops.

The LRT will also operate with 2 LRT trains linked together (with an option of 3 when demand gets higher) for a much larger capacity, with only one driver.

This makes it a mix between subway and streetcar.

Streetcar-like:

-LRV style vehicles
-No signaling system
-Above ground in areas in median of road (like Spadina streetcar)

Subway-like:

-Traffic signal priority (very few and short stops for lights)
-Faster than streetcars, more like subway speed
-Longer trains coupled together (with 3 trains coupled together one train will have 500 people crush capacity)
-underground in dense areas
-mandatory stops further spaced apart (500-1km)
-all door boarding and pay fare at station, not on LRV

 

[micheal_can]

Also, the streetcars downtown are "stop on demand" with much closer stops, much like a bus on rails. The LRT will operate more like a subway. Further spacing of stops, (even more so underground) plus they are mandatory stops.

The LRT will also operate with 2 LRT trains linked together (with an option of 3 when demand gets higher) for a much larger capacity, with only one driver.

This makes it a mix between subway and streetcar.

Streetcar-like:

-LRV style vehicles
-No signaling system
-Above ground in areas in median of road (like Spadina streetcar)

Subway-like:

-Traffic signal priority (very few and short stops for lights)
-Faster than streetcars, more like subway speed
-Longer trains coupled together (with 3 trains coupled together one train will have 500 people crush capacity)
-underground in dense areas
-mandatory stops further spaced apart (500-1km)
-all door boarding and pay fare at station, not on LRV

And that is why I am confused.

For the stops, couldn't one argue that the Streetcars are noting more than a LRT with on demand stops?
If they changed the signalling priority on the Streetcars, could that make them more like an LRT?

Yes, I can see the clear difference between a Streetcar line and a Subway line. But the LRT mess is the confusing part.

 

[adrianaliu]

is it confirmed that signal priority will be at all intersections??? i heard something about them cancelling that for finch west and i assumed it would be the same for eglinton

 

[Amare]

is it confirmed that signal priority will be at all intersections??? i heard something about them cancelling that for finch west and i assumed it would be the same for eglinton

No confirmation yet, it will be up to Toronto Transportation Services on whether they implement it or not.

 

[crs1026]

If you go back to the traffic studies in the EA - the modelling suggested that the probability of an LRV getting a green light, allowing it to enter the intersection without decelerating, was only between 23-35% for the major intersections west of Jane. This is one of the issues that drives one to look for grade separation. With the proposed U turn lanes, one passage requires three green lights. There has been little promIsed in terms of traffic priority for Eglinton West.

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

And that is why I am confused.

For the stops, couldn't one argue that the Streetcars are noting more than a LRT with on demand stops?
If they changed the signalling priority on the Streetcars, could that make them more like an LRT?

Yes, I can see the clear difference between a Streetcar line and a Subway line. But the LRT mess is the confusing part.

Not really. There are some things you are missing still.

Such as the fact that the stations for the streetcars are too close together. And that most operate in mixed traffic.

For those that don't, like Spadina, you'd have to remove half the stations. But you still aren't there yet.

You can't couple the streetcars together. So say you replace the trains with ones that can, but now you have to rebuild the stops to accommodate the longer trains.

Not quite there yet. We need to implement traffic priority.

Ok we have, but still one problem. The rails aren't designed for the same speeds. Ok we need to rip up the rails and re-lay rails that can operate at a faster speed.

By this time, we've completely replaced the streetcar system with something new.

LRT is a halfway point between subways and streetcars.