Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[aquateam]

So you want to double the price of the line, and more than double the ongoing maintenance costs, just to avoid some traffic?

Why not double-down on that theory, and just replace all of the buses with subways, too? That would get the service away from the traffic.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Why would maintenance costs double? Operating costs would certainly go way down because it could be driverless. Combined operating and maintenance costs for a grade-separated LRT line would almost certainly be lower. Operating/maintenance costs for Eglinton are projected to be $80 million/year when it opens, which is $4.2 million/km. For Vancouver, their entire 79.6 km Skytrain system (which is 30 years old and undergoing significant capacity improvements) their operating/maintenance costs are $300 million, which is $3.7 million/km.

Because we are not spending $5.3 billion + $3.5 billion on a bus route. If we were, it would also be worthwhile to ask if it shouldn't be grade separated for what we are paying for it.

 

[BMO]

East of Laird, really. Don't forget the Leslie/Eglinton blunder. A T-intersection to boot with lots of vacant land available for a side-of-roadway alignment and proper station integrated with even a potential future GO connection and yet somehow they managed to screw it up.

The biggest missed opportunity of the entire line IMO. It's done in such a way that it likely won't ever be fixed or changed in the future.

 

[WislaHD]

So would a one-car crash at Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount, and any other number of north-south streets that intersect Eglinton. What's your point?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Because it so easily didn't have to be that way at Leslie.

 

[Allandale25]

If anything, that should be an off-setting cost against grade-separating Eglinton east. Spending a little extra to elevate Eglinton east would have prevented the $3.5 billion one-stop 6.3 km subway.



That kind of reinforces his point.

To me, though, it's not so much the potential for the occasional crash on that stretch of Eglinton (which would happen, what, 5 days a year?) It's the fact that the thing emerges from a 10 km tunnel just to have to stop at every red light.

I thought there was going to be some kind of coordination between the LRVs and the traffic signals so that they would turn green or automatically adjust the cycle when a LRV is approaching.

As for a "[car] crash" impacting service, to be specific you're only referring to intersections since the rest of the line is separated from cars.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From their latest e-mail:

What's Happening?
The Eglinton West LRT is a key component of the SmartTrack program. It is an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, which is currently under construction. The new LRT will have between 8 and 12 stops between Mount Dennis and the Mississauga Transitway at Renforth Station (Commerce Blvd) and an extension to the new Regional Transit Centre (RTC) at Pearson Airport.
​

Looks like it is called an "extension" north into Pearson Airport because it would be under Mississauga and GTAA jurisdictions.

 

[Avenue]

If a station is called "Widdicombe Hill / Lloyd Manor" it probably shouldn't exist. Can we please stop building more Besarion stations?

I'd understand building a station between Eglinton and Lawrence on line one because it's such a crowded area and Eglinton station is overburdened. But Wincott/Bemersyde in bungalow & cul-de-sac country between Islington and Kipling? NO.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I suspect they want stations at those two locations, because those are two of a handful of locations along the route with potential for high density redevelopment.

 

[Hopkins123]

From their latest e-mail:

What's Happening?
The Eglinton West LRT is a key component of the SmartTrack program. It is an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, which is currently under construction. The new LRT will have between 8 and 12 stops between Mount Dennis and the Mississauga Transitway at Renforth Station (Commerce Blvd) and an extension to the new Regional Transit Centre (RTC) at Pearson Airport.
​

Looks like it is called an "extension" north into Pearson Airport because it would be under Mississauga and GTAA jurisdictions.

To quote the Hound, what in seven hells are those 3 mid block stops doing on that map?

 

[aquateam]

I thought there was going to be some kind of coordination between the LRVs and the traffic signals so that they would turn green or automatically adjust the cycle when a LRV is approaching.

Just like for Spadina, St Clair, or any other TTC surface route? If they haven't been able to give decent signal priority to existing routes after decades of operation, why would they do it now? Toronto traffic control is concerned about one thing: moving cars through as efficiently as possible.

As for a "[car] crash" impacting service, to be specific you're only referring to intersections since the rest of the line is separated from cars.

To be fair, most serious crashes occur at intersections. But I was arguing that the impact of collisions on the reliability of the line isn't that severe. Other aspects of at-grade operation would be more of a detriment to its success, such as the decrease in speed from operating at-grade, the delays and schedule uncertainty from light timing, additional operating costs from manual operation, etc.

If a station is called "Widdicombe Hill / Lloyd Manor" it probably shouldn't exist.

I agree, this is "Aga Khan Park & Museum" all over again. "Widdicombe" would have been a perfectly acceptable stop name

 

[smallspy]

Why would maintenance costs double? Operating costs would certainly go way down because it could be driverless. Combined operating and maintenance costs for a grade-separated LRT line would almost certainly be lower. Operating/maintenance costs for Eglinton are projected to be $80 million/year when it opens, which is $4.2 million/km. For Vancouver, their entire 79.6 km Skytrain system (which is 30 years old and undergoing significant capacity improvements) their operating/maintenance costs are $300 million, which is $3.7 million/km.

Because we are not spending $5.3 billion + $3.5 billion on a bus route. If we were, it would also be worthwhile to ask if it shouldn't be grade separated for what we are paying for it.

The TTC has said that it costs, on average, $7mil per year to maintain one route-km of subway tunnel. That covers the running rails, third rail and power supply, signalling, lighting, ventilation, etc., and the cost of doing so in a very limited window of opportunity and physical space.

If you are running on the surface in the middle of a street, the rails and power supply need to be maintained, sure. But there is no lighting, signalling or life-safety systems that need to be maintained.

Because it so easily didn't have to be that way at Leslie.

You seem to have forgotten that there will be crossovers to either side of Leslie. The service may be cut off at Leslie (for a very short period of time), but the service will continue to run to Laird and to Don Mills.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

Just like for Spadina, St Clair, or any other TTC surface route? If they haven't been able to give decent signal priority to existing routes after decades of operation, why would they do it now? Toronto traffic control is concerned about one thing: moving cars through as efficiently as possible.

You've inspired me to ask and find out. Also, I wonder if a distinction is required for your use of "they". This isn't a TTC-led project. It's being constructed by Metrolinx. One would assume this would have come up in the design. I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

As far as I know, Toronto Transportation Services is ultimately in charge of TSP across the city

 

[crs1026]

You've inspired me to ask and find out. Also, I wonder if a distinction is required for your use of "they". This isn't a TTC-led project. It's being constructed by Metrolinx. One would assume this would have come up in the design. I'll let you know what I find out.

Be sure to ask what level of priority transit gets. There are “integrated” traffic signals that control both transit and traffic, but that doesn’t mean transit gets priority. An example is the Queensway, where there is complex signalling - but the underlying algorithm optimises auto vehicular flow, not transit velocity.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

To quote the Hound, what in seven hells are those 3 mid block stops doing on that map?

Those mid-block stops are near ex-Richview Expressway lands which were sold or are for sale on orders of the former Mayor Rob Ford. They would be used for town houses or condos. Also for example, the Plant World land around 4000 Eglinton Avenue West will be re-developed, see link.

 

[MisterF]

The TTC has said that it costs, on average, $7mil per year to maintain one route-km of subway tunnel. That covers the running rails, third rail and power supply, signalling, lighting, ventilation, etc., and the cost of doing so in a very limited window of opportunity and physical space.

If you are running on the surface in the middle of a street, the rails and power supply need to be maintained, sure. But there is no lighting, signalling or life-safety systems that need to be maintained.

I'm not sure what the TTC subway has to do with anything; the post you're responding to clearly mentions a grade separated transit system that has lower operating costs than the Eglinton LRT projections. Just over half of what it costs to maintain a subway tunnel apparently. Grade separatio doesn't necessarily mean subway and if those numbers are accurate, it doesn't necessarily mean higher maintenance costs either.