TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Who is expecting Toronto to have a population of 4 Million by 2030? That prediction seems outlandish.
Source for this?
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Who is expecting Toronto to have a population of 4 Million by 2030? That prediction seems outlandish.
Source for this?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
You are quite correct {and I have changed my post} as I meant to say TC was based on Toronto reaching 3 million by 2030 but now will probably hit 3.5 million. I appreciate you pointing that out.
As far as 4 minute max frequency per direction, this is because you have to take in to account the frequent scenario of both east/west trains arriving 2 minutes apart from the station. Anything less than that would simply not allow enough time for the cross traffic, advanced lights, and to say nothing of the pedestrians having to cross the street.
As far as 4 minute max frequency per direction, this is because you have to take in to account the frequent scenario of both east/west trains arriving 2 minutes apart from the station. Anything less than that would simply not allow enough time for the cross traffic, advanced lights, and to say nothing of the pedestrians having to cross the street.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Must not forget that the initial train configuration was to be 2 Bombardier Freedom vehicles in a train. Which could be expanded to 3 Bombardier Freedom vehicles in a train, without having to alter the stations or stops.
From thecrosstown.ca website.
From this link:
From thecrosstown.ca website.
From this link:
Sample travel times:
Kennedy Station to Yonge-Eglinton (Eglinton Station): 40 minutes by bus, 26 minutes by light rail
Kennedy Station to Eglinton-Keele (Keelesdale Station): 73 minutes by bus, 38 minutes by light rail
Eglinton-Keele (Keelesdale Station) to Eglinton West (Cedarvale Station): 16 minutes by bus, 6 minutes by light rail
Kennedy Station to Yonge-Eglinton (Eglinton Station): 40 minutes by bus, 26 minutes by light rail
Kennedy Station to Eglinton-Keele (Keelesdale Station): 73 minutes by bus, 38 minutes by light rail
Eglinton-Keele (Keelesdale Station) to Eglinton West (Cedarvale Station): 16 minutes by bus, 6 minutes by light rail
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TOareaFan
Superstar
Some perspective......between the 2011 and 2016 census reports, the population of the city of Toronto grew from 2,615,060 to 2,731,571...that is 4.5% growth over 5 years or an average of 0.88% compounded annually. If that rate of growth continues (and it is a fairly high rate for a large/mature urban centre) the population in 2030 will be 3,086,163. For Toronto to hit 3.5MM people by 2030 the annual rate of growth would have to more than double to 1.79%.
I would be far more likely to put money on 3MM by 2030 than 3.5MM.
Steve X
Senior Member
He's just hating on LRT and TC. His statement was totally pro-subway. I don't think if TO had 4 million, the Sheppard subway would be in subway ridership territory.
BTW, the times ML given requires full transit priority. If they stop at every red light and then slowly cross the road, it will never achieve those times.
BTW, the times ML given requires full transit priority. If they stop at every red light and then slowly cross the road, it will never achieve those times.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
4 to 5 minute headways is the current spacing for the subways. I have no idea how 90 second headways would work unless you are going to run empty vehicle as it takes poel time to get on and off of them. The surface stops may take less time to load ad unload then the stations will though but I relly don't think we will ever see any heady ways lower then 4 or 3 minutes between trains.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
I've never seen the traffic lights on Eglinton Avenue be red longer than 3 minutes. Maybe a minute it is red to allow cross traffic go through.
Steve X
Senior Member
I don't know why they wouldn't program the lights to coordinate in a way that trains always get a green. (Synchronized green) As long as each train dwells within a reasonable timeframe. This would already allow trains within 2-3 minute headway to operate normally. I'm pretty sure St Clair is programmed like this.
The next addition would be detection loops. They would be placed right after the platform. This would inform the upcoming traffic signal that a train is coming. It will assume when the train will arrive within X seconds based on speed limit and distance (usually would be up to a minute since it's a block away). The traffic controller would by dynamic and give priority to the LRT over traffic. The controller will determine if the request can be granted or not by extending a the green phase or shorting the red phase of the perpendicular road. Theoretically the operators could know if they would see a green or a red if they install a device or program the cab signal to tell them.
This method is already tested: the https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/f...TRB-APTA_Green-Line-Signal-Priority_rev02.pdf
Note: this isn't the same type of TSP we have here where streetcars roll up to the intersection and the controller only have a second to determine a streetcar has arrived. The point is not to approach a red and shorted the time but to ensure a green phase is available. 2 minutes should be quite doable with good TSP. 90 seconds is quite difficult to achieve even with full grade separation.
The LRT can get full priority at Minor/midblock. If a train is detected coming, they should wait. Aren't we all tired of seeing a bunch of cars arriving after a large gap at a minor traffic signal to see it turn red for one car to make a left. If they ever decide to do such a thing on Spadina, we wouldn't have streetcars waiting at Sussex, Willcocks, Nassau, Sullivan and etc. It can even help space out bunching by not giving priority behind it.
The next addition would be detection loops. They would be placed right after the platform. This would inform the upcoming traffic signal that a train is coming. It will assume when the train will arrive within X seconds based on speed limit and distance (usually would be up to a minute since it's a block away). The traffic controller would by dynamic and give priority to the LRT over traffic. The controller will determine if the request can be granted or not by extending a the green phase or shorting the red phase of the perpendicular road. Theoretically the operators could know if they would see a green or a red if they install a device or program the cab signal to tell them.
This method is already tested: the https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/f...TRB-APTA_Green-Line-Signal-Priority_rev02.pdf
Note: this isn't the same type of TSP we have here where streetcars roll up to the intersection and the controller only have a second to determine a streetcar has arrived. The point is not to approach a red and shorted the time but to ensure a green phase is available. 2 minutes should be quite doable with good TSP. 90 seconds is quite difficult to achieve even with full grade separation.
The LRT can get full priority at Minor/midblock. If a train is detected coming, they should wait. Aren't we all tired of seeing a bunch of cars arriving after a large gap at a minor traffic signal to see it turn red for one car to make a left. If they ever decide to do such a thing on Spadina, we wouldn't have streetcars waiting at Sussex, Willcocks, Nassau, Sullivan and etc. It can even help space out bunching by not giving priority behind it.
Steve X
Senior Member
One more thing about synchronized green. They might not able to coordinate both directions as they have different stopping patterns. Dwelling time is longer in the peak direction and platform/signal spacing is different. Of course they should ensure the peak demand direction have the synchronized green. That means Eglinton to Kennedy might take longer than Kennedy to Eglinton in AM rush by a few minutes.
The EA analysis saying "Probability of a LRV Clearing on Green with Zero Signal Delay" is 30-35% (depending on intersection) of the time is completely BS. That is when no TSP is used and when a train randomly arrives. I really hope ML and Crosslinx consortium actually studied other cities and have priority over the city transportation planners. I'm betting city will screw this up and not realize other cities already have a better solution already in use. We don't need another Spadina or St Clair.
The EA analysis saying "Probability of a LRV Clearing on Green with Zero Signal Delay" is 30-35% (depending on intersection) of the time is completely BS. That is when no TSP is used and when a train randomly arrives. I really hope ML and Crosslinx consortium actually studied other cities and have priority over the city transportation planners. I'm betting city will screw this up and not realize other cities already have a better solution already in use. We don't need another Spadina or St Clair.
nfitz
Superstar
I doubt it. I'd think that if it was going to be underground the whole way, it would have stopped at Don Mills, and we'd be waiting years for Phase 2.
If we'd done Sheppard as underground from Yonge to Don Mills, and then at surface from Don Mills east, they have extended it to Scarborough by now! Though obviously the vehicle technology would have been different. Heck, perhaps it would have been longer to begin with, if the stations were only 2/3 of the length. (well they are, but they paid the full amount for full stations, and then just built temporary walls, to make them look smaller).
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I never said anything about a tunnel as a replacement. It's amazing how Torontonians still think grade separated transit has to mean underground. Elevation is the only option except perhaps a trench.
In LA, Edmonton, Calgary, Minni and most other cities building rapid transit LRT do so with 100% train priority which can include real train crossing barricades.
In LA, Edmonton, Calgary, Minni and most other cities building rapid transit LRT do so with 100% train priority which can include real train crossing barricades.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Based on Toronto's recent growth, the chances of it reaching 3.5 Million by 2030 are slim. The city (proper) isn't growing as fast as it used to.
44 North
Senior Member
Exactly. And is what Steve Munro is quoted as saying thirty years ago. Basically if it's built as heavy subway, it will be forever cut short (and thus far less transit riders will be served). And he was right. Which is why he proposed something like LRT that's underground between Yonge and Don Mills and at grade well into Scarboro. Hence why it's annoying/disheartening to see asshats try and claim he's some kind of anti-borough ghoul.
And I agree that if the subway was built with stations only 100m (i.e 4-car) that the savings would be enough to get it further in its first phase (maybe Vic Pk), and improve the biz case to actually finish the bloody thing.
crs1026
Superstar
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
The spacing looks a bit off on them right now I almost thought that it was narrow gauge for a moment, before I realized it wasn't attached to anything yet.