Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Darwinkgo]

TTC seemed to realize this in a 2006 report that showed lower costs and much less disruption.

http://www.toronto.ca/srtstudy/pdf/srt-strategic-plan-report.pdf

but when they decided on the one solution fits all transit model (everything LRT), they change the recommendation from Skytrain (Mark II) to LRT. Another factor was the refusal to consider anything but at-grade median for the East part of Eglinton. If all of Eglinton was interlined with the SRT - the order for vehicles would have been large enough that it would have achieve enough economies of scale.

Yeah. The TTC internally hates ICTS, and seems to be willing to do anything to end its use. Metrolinx for a long time was trying to convince the TTC to do a continuous ICTS Eglinton - SRT, but the TTC was having nothing of it.

Add to that the TTC's refusal to do contracting through Infrastructure Ontario, or a single contract instead of its piece by piece approach, and a picture emerges of a power hungry organization desperately trying to defend its fiefdom.

 

[ssiguy2]

Yeah. The TTC internally hates ICTS, and seems to be willing to do anything to end its use. Metrolinx for a long time was trying to convince the TTC to do a continuous ICTS Eglinton - SRT, but the TTC was having nothing of it.

Add to that the TTC's refusal to do contracting through Infrastructure Ontario, or a single contract instead of its piece by piece approach, and a picture emerges of a power hungry organization desperately trying to defend its fiefdom.

Exactly.
It's funny that one of the people that does not have a negative view of ALRT is Steve Munroe.
He openly states that the SRT is a complete failure but at the same time commends Vancouver on making it;'s SkyTrain a success. He sees the huge improvement in the vehicles themselves, superior reliability and most importantly how Translink was determined to make SkyTrain a success and it is.
The TTC CHOOSE to make the SRT a failure by not putting in the heating mechanisms, not updating the fleet, making the transfer at Kennedy the most inconvient as possible, allowing the tracks to rot, and having ugly stations.
Vancouver has proven that ALRT is a affordable, efficient, fast, quiet comfortable, reliable, extremely high frequency automated system with a stellar safety record.
Translink wanted to create an excellent ALRT rapid transit system and the TTC wanted the thing just to die a slow death......both transit agencies got exactly what they asked for.

 

[smallspy]

The TTC CHOOSE to make the SRT a failure by not putting in the heating mechanisms, not updating the fleet, making the transfer at Kennedy the most inconvient as possible, allowing the tracks to rot, and having ugly stations.

I'm not really sure where to start with this, so I'll try it out point-by-point.

Kennedy Station - I don't think that it's particularly poorly thought out, to be honest. They didn't have a whole lot of space to work with as all of the land around the station was already built upon, and they wanted to maximize the parking there. Yeah, the slog up the stairs is a bit of a pain, but no better or worse than the walk necessary at many of the stations on the Sheppard Line, or Wilson Station. Which is all designed like that for a reason.

Updating the fleet - in what way, exactly? The TTC upgraded the wayside computers a number of times, and in fact tried to upgrade to the latest version of SelTrac (which is what finally killed the ATO). Frankly, a lot of the problems on the line have more to do with the software, or the onboard computers - which are obsolete, but are hardly worth upgrading at this point - than anything else.

Ugly stations - funny. You've complained about the grandiose designs of the Spadina extension, and now you're complaining about how "ugly" the SRT stations are.

Rotting tracks - what exactly are you getting at here? The TTC has a specific level of maintenance that they have to meet. Are you suggesting that they are putting peoples lives in jeopardy when they ride on the TTC?

Heating mechanisms - where, exactly?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Darwinkgo]

Heating mechanisms on the third rail system I believe.

 

[Dan416]

CC:

Sorry, sinking good money into a project of dubious benefit when there are other more worthy priorities is a solution in search of a problem.

AoD

That's how I feel about the SELRT.

 

[Solid Snake]

Webster being fired will change a lot in the coming months

 

[EnviroTO]

Webster being fired will change a lot in the coming months

Yes, all of a sudden the TTC will say cancelling surface transit is improving transit, and subways going perpendicular to where people riding transit are actually wanting to go are revenue generators and the highest priority transit expense. The TTC will agree that there is a wealth of private money to finance subways. Subway studies will become the proof that Ford cares about transit even though none get built, much like how launching high-speed rail studies somehow is supposed to equate to caring about VIA rail while at the same time contemplating privatization. Maybe the TTC will be privatized as well so we can accelerate the pay more to get less formula that has happened in many places where such privatization has occurred.

 

[ssiguy2]

The TTC did everything humanly possible to screw up the SRT.
First they didn't put in the geating mechanism.
Second, they spent a small fortune reconfigurating the cars themselves so they could pay someone $30/hr to make sure the doors close.
Third, by not automating the system the system is not as efficient and due to the drivers excessively using the brakes stronger than they were designed for, the brakes wore out which wouldn't have happened if they had run the thing automated like it was designed for.
Fourth, by not improving the GO underpass and tigth curves they were not able to transfer to the new MK111 trains which are fantastic vehicles. The MK1 cars haven't been built since the mid-90s which just reinforces the poor attitude the populas has towards the system.
You can give all the excuses you want but the it doesn't change the fact that Vancouver used it's ALRT into a very good system and Toronto took the same technology and created a poor one.

 

[waltthizzney]

from riding the skytrain in Vancouver compared to Toronto , the first thing I noticed is how insanely loud, creeky and rough the ride was here compared to Vancouver, be it the old expo cars or the new ones

 

[Paleo]

The TTC did everything humanly possible to screw up the SRT.
First they didn't put in the geating mechanism.
Second, they spent a small fortune reconfigurating the cars themselves so they could pay someone $30/hr to make sure the doors close.
Third, by not automating the system the system is not as efficient and due to the drivers excessively using the brakes stronger than they were designed for, the brakes wore out which wouldn't have happened if they had run the thing automated like it was designed for.
Fourth, by not improving the GO underpass and tigth curves they were not able to transfer to the new MK111 trains which are fantastic vehicles. The MK1 cars haven't been built since the mid-90s which just reinforces the poor attitude the populas has towards the system.
You can give all the excuses you want but the it doesn't change the fact that Vancouver used it's ALRT into a very good system and Toronto took the same technology and created a poor one.

Didn't the Vancouver system shutdown last time there was snowfall?

 

[Hipster Duck]

Didn't the Vancouver system shutdown last time there was snowfall?

Vancouver is a lot less prepared for snow than Toronto because a massive snowfall is such a rare event. If you had a heavy rail subway that traveled overground in Vancouver, it would probably still shut down in the snow.

Secondly, it's not hard to build some kind of corrugated steel roof over the Skytrain/SRT tracks to prevent the tracks from getting snowed in. This is actually pretty cheap. The reason Vancouver hasn't done this is because big snowfalls are rare enough that it's not worth the cost.

ICTS is a pretty versatile technology if you know how to use it correctly. Vancouver knows how to do this, and Toronto doesn't. If you gave Vancouver the $8.2 billion that we're spending on Eglinton to build grade separated skytrain, they would be able to built 65 km worth.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Vancouver is a lot less prepared for snow than Toronto because a massive snowfall is such a rare event. If you had a heavy rail subway that traveled overground in Vancouver, it would probably still shut down in the snow.

Secondly, it's not hard to build some kind of corrugated steel roof over the Skytrain/SRT tracks to prevent the tracks from getting snowed in. This is actually pretty cheap. The reason Vancouver hasn't done this is because big snowfalls are rare enough that it's not worth the cost.

ICTS is a pretty versatile technology if you know how to use it correctly. Vancouver knows how to do this, and Toronto doesn't. If you gave Vancouver the $8.2 billion that we're spending on Eglinton to build grade separated skytrain, they would be able to built 65 km worth.

Exactly. Toronto has poor planning above all else.

 

[JWBF]

Exactly. Toronto has poor planning above all else.

Although the TTC and Toronto are knee deep in the blame over ICTS/ART, the then current provincial government did a good job of complicating things.

 

[BurlOak]

Vancouver is a lot less prepared for snow than Toronto because a massive snowfall is such a rare event. If you had a heavy rail subway that traveled overground in Vancouver, it would probably still shut down in the snow.

Secondly, it's not hard to build some kind of corrugated steel roof over the Skytrain/SRT tracks to prevent the tracks from getting snowed in. This is actually pretty cheap. The reason Vancouver hasn't done this is because big snowfalls are rare enough that it's not worth the cost.

ICTS is a pretty versatile technology if you know how to use it correctly. Vancouver knows how to do this, and Toronto doesn't. If you gave Vancouver the $8.2 billion that we're spending on Eglinton to build grade separated skytrain, they would be able to built 65 km worth.

I was thinking of a Plexiglass roof (and walls) over the track when elevated (i.e. on Eglinton through Scarborough and parallel to Ellesmere) - similar to the clear noise walls the MTO has put on on the sides of highways and even over bridges (i.e. through St. Catharines). In the rail corridor, a simpler solution of corrugated steel could be used.

 

[ssiguy2]

Actually the heating mechanisms are not expensive. 2 years ago Vancouver got POUNDED over the holidays with 60 cm of snow and the temps were cold enough that the snow didn't melt for three weeks. Even in Toronto 50 cm is a very major snowfall but not once did the SkyTrain stop running. They simply has one of the MK1 cars run all night on the route to keep the line clear and when the system is automated it costs bery little.
The MK111 trains also don't have the vibration and noise of the MK1 due to better suspension and weighing more as they are the length of 3 MK1 cars. The new trains are a completely differewnt animal from the crates Toronto runs.