Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Tulse]

I think Miller tried to push the agenda too LEFT

Since when is the spacing of stops a "LEFT" issue?

 

[M II A II R II K]

The setup that the Seattle Sound Transit LRT has which also runs in the middle of a suburban street should suffice for Eglinton, with the signal priority included.



[video=youtube;H-Yzds_n8Vo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Yzds_n8Vo[/video]

 

[junctionist]

With the Crosstown going to Black Creek Drive as its western terminus, I wonder if York City Centre will finally take shape. When the Eglinton West subway was planned, the City of York anticipated a dense city centre on Eglinton around Black Creek with office and condo towers. It would great to see some quality urban development in the area.

 

[Dan416]

I'm metaphorically holding my breath to see what happens here. If Stintz convinces Ford to have at-grade eastern section, will the savings go to extending Sheppard or building the western section the Airport?

 

[MetroMan]

^ I don't think they'll put the savings toward an airport extension. That hasn't been proposed or even mentioned anywhere in council, at TTC or Metrolinx.

My bet is that the game that Ford and Council have been playing will continue: Council will throw Ford a bone to make him cooperative by not embarrassing him with an all out defeat. The savings will go to the Sheppard subway and Ford will be able to claim a big victory (even though this plan is going ahead in spite of him, not because of him). He'll announce proudly that he's building subways like he was elected to do.

I'm not completely against this outcome, though I would have preferred Transit City. Nonetheless, we'll get two rapid transit lines within the decade and the next Mayor can then begin to deal with LRT lines along the original Transit City routes.

 

[rbt]

I'm metaphorically holding my breath to see what happens here. If Stintz convinces Ford to have at-grade eastern section, will the savings go to extending Sheppard or building the western section the Airport?

Stintz has publically said Eglinton above ground would save $1B (I think she under-estimates this) and she wants to put that toward Sheppard.

My guess is the Feds would match that eventually (see Spadina timelines; Fed involvement could delay by 4 years). Ford gets a symbolic ground breaking before the next election with real work starting a year or two after that.

 

[Paleo]

while light rail can be lightning quick if implemented properly. I was critical on Transit City not because it was light rail per se, but because as-was it was set to be the worst implementation of this kind of transit on a global scale! As wasteful as it is to run LRVs underground in low density environs, it sure as hell is better than to build a suburban 'streetcar-pretending-to-be-LRT' with stops every few hundred meters.

You're joking right? 500 metres is just a bit shorter than large portions of the subway system and significantly longer than almost anything on the streetcar system. For god's sake there are literally stops every 100 metres or less downtown.

 

[11th]

With the Crosstown going to Black Creek Drive as its western terminus, I wonder if York City Centre will finally take shape. When the Eglinton West subway was planned, the City of York anticipated a dense city centre on Eglinton around Black Creek with office and condo towers. It would great to see some quality urban development in the area.

Condo towers probably, office towers, not quite. If office towers aren't getting built at NYCC and SCC, I doubt they'll do so at Black Creek/Eglinton West.

 

[ssiguy2]

Well it step in the right direction but of course there are trade offs.
First, it will be more expensive to operate as the line will not be able to be automated as Metrolinx has said it wants to.
Second, the line will not be able to run as frequently. The line, like all automated systems, could run about every 90 seconds if eventually needed but due to running on the street and wanting to avoid "crunching" of trains like on Queen the highest frequency will be every 3 minutes. That is certainly still high frequency but it still reduces potential capacity by 50%. It may not be needed now but you don't build capacity for present needs but what will be needed 50 years from now.
Third, the trains will be limited to probably 2 cars per train as opposed to the potential 3 if the entire line was grade separated.
Fourth, it will be slower. Not by much but that will depend greatly on the number of stations and the original TC has far to many to make it true rapid transit. There should only be stations at major intersections averaging about one per km give or take.
There is also the "problem" of what to do with the SRT. The tiny little conversion is some how going to take 4 years and cost a staggering $1.2 billion which only god knows how. Apparently the biggest expense and difficulties is that all the stations have to have their roof raised in order to accomodate the overhead catenary. That expense could be completely eliminated by using Bombardier new catenary-free LRT cars now in service in Europe. Of course they could save themselves a cool billion by simply improving the GO rail underpass , put in the heating mechanisms, and run the new MK11 SkyTrain cars.
By just leaving and upgrading the current SkyTrain line and building the section mentioned at at grade that will dave $2 billion. $650 million for Sheppard as McGuinty agreed and $1.3 billion for high capacity LRT expansion to the airport. Vancouver is building it's total grade separated new 11km SkyTrain Evergreen Line including a 1 km tunnel for $1.4 billion, there is no reason why Toronto couldn't do the same.

 

[Electrify]

You're joking right? 500 metres is just a bit shorter than large portions of the subway system and significantly longer than almost anything on the streetcar system. For god's sake there are literally stops every 100 metres or less downtown.

Transit planners tend to argue that 400m is appropriate for local service, while 1000m is good for rapid lines (which is what Transit City was marketed as). Theoretically we could adjust the current stopping pattern on the Sheppard route to reflect that of its Transit City counterpart, and see immediate speed increases while still following sound transit planning.

While in North America we tend to have tighter stop spacing than in Europe, even in Manhattan buses don't stop every 100m!

 

[dunkalunk]

Would it not be possible for a light rail vehicle to use catenary at-grade and third rail on grade-separated sections? If the catenary can be tucked away in tunnels or on the SRT corridor, then that would certainly save on some cost.

 

[ssiguy2]

I have no idea if the catenary=free LRT system is more expensive or not. Certainly not having to build the catenary electrical overhead supply would certainly save time and road space but I don't know if the LRT cars themselves would be more expensive which I think the would be as the have both catenary and underground power options built in. They certainly would be more attractive with nonw of the ugly overhead wires and be less visually intrusive. As far as regular cost compared to standard LRT, I don't know but that is for any NEW section. The catenary-free system has the same geight as standard Metro or SkyTrain which would save huge amounts of time and money on the SRT conversion but not having to put up overhead power supply but especially due to not having to "raise the roof" on the current stations. In other words, only the track needs to be cjanged not the stations as well.

 

[rbt]

While in North America we tend to have tighter stop spacing than in Europe, even in Manhattan buses don't stop every 100m!

Neither do TTC vehicles, for the most part.

I very rarely experience a bus or streetcar stopping at every stop (about 3 in 4 are skipped - no pickups or dropoffs). On the rare event this does occur, usually the Queen car, there is seldom an empty stretch of roadway ahead of it. Despite stopping every 100m, it still keeps up with traffic.

That said, the Q33 through the neighbourhoods on the way to Laguardia certainly seems far more irritating than the Queen car through downtown.


Does the TTC GPS tracking system report when the doors are open? If so, we might be able to get some real information about actual stop frequency versus stuck-in-traffic frequency.

 

[Eug]

cancelled eglinton in either form would make me cry.

Same here. I would prefer the whole thing be grade-separated, but it does make wonder if the whole thing in any form is just going to get delayed... or else partially killed. Metrolinx is now asking for clarification of the city's message. Definitely not a good sign.

I get the impression Karen Stintz is going to be running for mayor. And if not mayor, just using this as a differentiator for herself from Ford. These damn politicians. Miller and his stupid idea to cancel the island bridge. And now hypocritical Stintz using the Eglinton line to further her own political career, just like Ford did.

 

[sixrings]

Same here. I would prefer the whole thing be grade-separated, but it does make wonder if the whole thing in any form is just going to get delayed... or else partially killed. Metrolinx is now asking for clarification of the city's message. Definitely not a good sign.

I get the impression Karen Stintz is going to be running for mayor. And if not mayor, just using this as a differentiator for herself from Ford. These damn politicians. Miller and his stupid idea to cancel the island bridge. And now hypocritical Stintz using the Eglinton line to further her own political career, just like Ford did.

i actually think row is the best option. if it has the right stop spacing, martin grove, kipling, islington, royal york, jane, weston, keele, caledonia, dufferin, oakwood, eglinton west, bathurst, chaplain, avenue, yonge, mount pleasent, bayview, laird, leslie, donmills, vic park, warden, birchmont, kennedy, and it has signal priority it will be a showcase for the rest of the city to embrace lrt. ill never understand why people are going on about how in fifty years it might be over capacity. even if it is in 20 years simply build another lrt with similar stop spacing on lawrence. the reality is that a eglinton and lawrence lrt can be built for a similar price as a entire eglinton subway (lawrence probably does not need to be barried anywhere). no matter what though something has to be built and the arguing needs to stop. i dont think its perfect but i could live with a eglinton lrt row and sheppard subway to kennedy.