Toronto Crosstown LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[Aplus23]

Do you guys think this project will be finished on time? The contractually agreed revenue service start date is just two years from today (give or take 30 days). Most of the underground stations visually look nowhere close to completion. I would’ve expected we’d see some substantial completion of surface structures right now, but so far I haven’t seen anything.

The progress of Bathurst Station in particular has been amazingly slow. That intersection has been torn up for 5 years now, and the station is still just a giant pit in the ground. Indeed, if I remember correct, Bathurst is the least-completed station on the line

Nevertheless, it’s amazing to see something we’ve discussed for 13 years now finally all come together. I don’t think I’ve yet internalized that Toronto is about to get its first major new rapid transit line in 60 years.

Isn't the Sheppard line new raping transit ??

I keep telling myself that they're on time, I don't think the street service portion will take all that long to complete. A lot of it is almost completed now if you ask me. As far as the stations go, I don't think those will take all that long as well. Most of them have already started to be building up towards grade now. Mount Dennis and keesedale should be completed by this year. A lot of work could be done in 2yrs, you could build a high-rise with underground parking from start to finish in 2 years, so yeah I think they will be done on time, that could be me being nieve and optimistic tho.

 

[crs1026]

Do you guys think this project will be finished on time? The contractually agreed revenue service start date is just two years from today (give or take 30 days).

It's interesting to go back and see where TYSSE was two years before opening day. From a quick scan back to around Message 4545 in the TYSSE thread, in December 2015 all the station pours were complete and structural steel was being erected for the above ground portion of the stations.

By that standard, Crosstown is behind. It's possible its stations are a little less complicated, but all the same subsystems will need to be there. And with some of the stations nothing but holes, the installation of power, signalling, data, escalators and elevators, HVAC, etc etc is that much farther behind.

Personally I won't sleep until they get all the structural work at Cedervale and Yonge done, and we know there hasn't been an "oops" with the Line 1 subway structure. That strikes me as the most risky part of the project, and we aren't there yet. The other holes are dug, at least, and concrete pours seem to be progressing at most. Pouring the roofs and backfilling is (relatively) straightforward. The mined stations, however, are a big question mark.

- Paul

 

[hw621]

Isn't the Sheppard line new raping transit ??

I keep telling myself that they're on time, I don't think the street service portion will take all that long to complete. A lot of it is almost completed now if you ask me. As far as the stations go, I don't think those will take all that long as well. Most of them have already started to be building up towards grade now. Mount Dennis and keesedale should be completed by this year. A lot of work could be done in 2yrs, you could build a high-rise with underground parking from start to finish in 2 years, so yeah I think they will be done on time, that could be me being nieve and optimistic tho.

Raping transit？

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's interesting to go back and see where TYSSE was two years before opening day. From a quick scan back to around Message 4545 in the TYSSE thread, in December 2015 all the station pours were complete and structural steel was being erected for the above ground portion of the stations.

By that standard, Crosstown is behind. It's possible its stations are a little less complicated, but all the same subsystems will need to be there. And with some of the stations nothing but holes, the installation of power, signalling, data, escalators and elevators, HVAC, etc etc is that much farther behind.

Personally I won't sleep until they get all the structural work at Cedervale and Yonge done, and we know there hasn't been an "oops" with the Line 1 subway structure. That strikes me as the most risky part of the project, and we aren't there yet. The other holes are dug, at least, and concrete pours seem to be progressing at most. Pouring the roofs and backfilling is (relatively) straightforward. The mined stations, however, are a big question mark.

- Paul

Oh yea I totally forgot about Yonge and Cedarvale

As of a few days ago, it appeared that they were still in the process of Underpinning at Cedarvale. Yonge is at a similar stage. This is tremendously precise and complex work; it’s really hard for me to imagine it being done in just two years

At Avenue Station they’re still in the process of mining and excavating. Two years out from launch

And let’s not forget that the contractor will need around 4 to 6 months for testing and commissioning. So they really have around 18 months to wrap up substantial completion of 10 km of tunnel and 10 underground stations, in addition to the eastern section and maintenance/storage facility.

On the bright side though, Bathurst progressed substantially compared to what I suggested earlier:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1164902373984231425

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I have a hard time understanding why they’d intentionally stage the work like this. By leaving so much critical work to the last minute, they have to use a massive amount of manpower and resources all at once, which is very expensive. It’s typically more economical to use less resources at once, by spreading out the work evenly across several years. And, of course, with this arrangement they increase the risk of late project completion.

I would’ve expected to see structural completion of several stations, and for underpinning of Line 1 to be long since completed, by now.

 

[cplchanb]

I have a hard time understanding why they’d intentionally stage the work like this. By leaving so much critical work to the last minute, they have to use a massive amount of manpower and resources all at once, which is very expensive. It’s typically more economical to use less resources at once, by spreading out the work evenly across several years. And, of course, with this arrangement they increase the risk of late project completion.

I would’ve expected to see structural completion of several stations, and for underpinning of Line 1 to be long since completed, by now.

lowest bidder, higher chances of corner cuts and shabbiness

 

[Aplus23]

Raping transit？

Rapid ** my mistake

 

[crs1026]

I have a hard time understanding why they’d intentionally stage the work like this. By leaving so much critical work to the last minute, they have to use a massive amount of manpower and resources all at once, which is very expensive. It’s typically more economical to use less resources at once, by spreading out the work evenly across several years. And, of course, with this arrangement they increase the risk of late project completion.

I would’ve expected to see structural completion of several stations, and for underpinning of Line 1 to be long since completed, by now.

I'm on the screw-up side of this one, as opposed to the conspiracy side.

The plan as described back at the start was for the work to progress from west to east, for the very reason you suggest.... experienced team finishes their specialty at one station, move on to the next, and on down the line. One has to suppose that some of those tasks encountered problems or got behind..... and now things have to happen in parallel.

No project comes off without a glitch or two. The issue is when the project has to fess up. With Crosstown being a P3, all that transparency is hidden because only the contractor has the right to know where things stand.

I don't trust Metrolinx to be at all candid about any known delays... they will bury the facts under their puffy PR. I would much rather hear bad news, if there is any, now rather than later. Unforeseens happen, but trust is hard to rebuild.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yeah I do vaguely remember the west-to-east construction staging actually.

Welp I guess that means that there’s a good chance this will be delivered late. I wouldn’t be surprised by a two year delay, unless they rapidly pick up the pace

 

[Aplus23]

The surface section will not take long, that should be completed by this year substantially.

My pleasant to keesedale should be done by this year.

An engineer on twitter said leaside will be mined completed by the fall.

 

[smallspy]

Do you guys think this project will be finished on time?

As much as I'd like to be an optimist about this - no, I don't. There is an absolutely enormous amount of work that remains to be done considering there are but 730-some-odd days left to do it in. (And the reality is that it's less than that, as they don't work on many holidays.)

Station boxes still need to be excavated. Concrete needs to be poured. Rebar needs to be installed, and formwork placed. Station finishes need to be installed and cleaned. Escalators and elevators need to be installed, completed, tested and certified. Wires for communication, lighting and all sorts of other things need to be run and tested. Track needs to be installed. Overhead needs to be strung or placed. Power feeds need to be installed, connected, tested and activated. Signals need to be installed and tested. Life safety systems need to be installed, tested, certified, and tested once more.

And all of that needs to be repeated on each station and section of the line - and that doesn't include the fact that the whole system needs to be tested for 6 weeks prior to being opened up for service.

The progress of Bathurst Station in particular has been amazingly slow. That intersection has been torn up for 5 years now, and the station is still just a giant pit in the ground. Indeed, if I remember correct, Bathurst is the least-completed station on the line.

To the contrary, Bathurst Station is almost complete compared to Mount Pleasant Station. They haven't even started excavating the north side of the station, and they're only about half-way down on the excavation of the south side.

Leaside, too, is not very far along - they don't appear to have excavated down to the track level yet.

To all of those people who feel that Metrolinx is better at planning large projects than the TTC - do you still feel that now? Will you still feel that in 2 years? 3 years?

Dan

 

[W. K. Lis]

As much as I'd like to be an optimist about this - no, I don't. There is an absolutely enormous amount of work that remains to be done considering there are but 730-some-odd days left to do it in. (And the reality is that it's less than that, as they don't work on many holidays.)

Station boxes still need to be excavated. Concrete needs to be poured. Rebar needs to be installed, and formwork placed. Station finishes need to be installed and cleaned. Escalators and elevators need to be installed, completed, tested and certified. Wires for communication, lighting and all sorts of other things need to be run and tested. Track needs to be installed. Overhead needs to be strung or placed. Power feeds need to be installed, connected, tested and activated. Signals need to be installed and tested. Life safety systems need to be installed, tested, certified, and tested once more.

And all of that needs to be repeated on each station and section of the line - and that doesn't include the fact that the whole system needs to be tested for 6 weeks prior to being opened up for service.



To the contrary, Bathurst Station is almost complete compared to Mount Pleasant Station. They haven't even started excavating the north side of the station, and they're only about half-way down on the excavation of the south side.

Leaside, too, is not very far along - they don't appear to have excavated down to the track level yet.

To all of those people who feel that Metrolinx is better at planning large projects than the TTC - do you still feel that now? Will you still feel that in 2 years? 3 years?

Dan

As other stations along the line get covered over and ready for the finishing touches, the heavy construction people will move on to the remaining stations. With more people, the work will speed up on the remaining stations.

 

[Coolstar]

You're all forgetting that even if they pick up the pace and complete structural work, the Flexity Freedom deliveries could end up delaying everything. Last time I checked, we have 7 or 8 vehicles.

 

[Steve X]

You're all forgetting that even if they pick up the pace and complete structural work, the Flexity Freedom deliveries could end up delaying everything. Last time I checked, we have 7 or 8 vehicles.

I think they are still in prototyping phase. Until they have successfully tested them on the mainline under regular operations, there's no point of having a pileup of them that might need to be returned if there's a major flaw. The ramp up delivery should start in 2020.

The surface section will not take long, that should be completed by this year substantially.

My pleasant to keesedale should be done by this year.

An engineer on twitter said leaside will be mined completed by the fall.

The tunnels would be done but the two interchange stations won't be till 2021. I highly doubt any trains could pass by east of Allen before 2021 and definitely not Yonge. If opening ends up being delayed, there will be a high chance Eglinton Station didn't finish on time. Most of the excavation needs to be finished in the next 3-6 months if they really expect a 2021 opening date.

I believe one of the intersections on the surface section is scheduled for 2020. Mabe they pushed that to late 2019, otherwise the tracks won't be passable till mid 2020.

 

[Ozman]

Do you guys think this project will be finished on time?

Like others have said; I'd like to be more optimistic but I can't really see it happening. There is so much more work to be done - a lot of it technical/electrical/signal stuff that requires a lot of diligence and testing to get right and to iron all the bugs out.

I live near the construction and have attended most of the meetings, and open-houses and have followed the progress closely since 2007 here and else-where on-line. Based on how long it's taken to get this far, I can't seem them opening for revenue service in 25 months. (As a matter of fact the scheduled start is exactly that - September 29, 2021.)

One thing that I haven't heard mentioned too much is the fact that there have been no (major) delays so far, at least that they (Metrolinx and Crosslinx) have publicly admitted. Thank goodness for that, but just think if a strike at one or two of the unions happens then the schedule is completely out the window. Or worse, if a major accident happened all work could stop for an inquest (rightfully so) but that would set things back years.

Imagine, heaven forbid, that a collapse occurred at Cedarvale or Eglinton & Yonge. Even if no one was injured or killed, Line 1 could be severely compromised and this would paralyze public transit in this city for months or years not too mention set back Line 5 construction.

So far (fingers crossed) we've avoided these major and less-major calamities but based on other transit projects (here and elsewhere) I don't see everything staying right on schedule. One advantage might be that it is a completely new line so retro-fitting and trying to simultaneously run an existing service with slightly different technologies is not an issue with the Crosstown.

Finally, I question at what point Metrolinx will actually admit they are behind. Having gone to many meetings I have little confidence that they will either have the knowledge or the desire to be upfront with the public. They just tell you what you want to hear and also those who know don't seem to talk and those talk rarely know too much.

Hopefully I'm proven wrong and we'll be gliding under Eglinton in two years time and everything will have gone swimmingly.

For now my prediction for opening day of revenue service is August 1, 2023.