Toronto Core Condos | 84.12m | 24s | CentreCourt | P + S / IBI

ProjectEnd · Apr 21, 2016

What an appalling mess.

ChesterCopperpot · Apr 21, 2016

Not the most promising signs

ProjectEnd · Apr 21, 2016

And to think, CentreCourt started off so well with Peter Street. Sad to see them dip so low...

maestro · Apr 21, 2016

Stupidandshallow said:
How did spandrel come into fashion? It's so prevalent in our recent buildings -- I don't see it used as much around the world quite like it is here...It's gross and in my eyes akin to cladding the facade of a house in angel brick or vinyl.

Spandrel is used everywhere including glass. What you don't find everywhere is window wall. Also, not too many places cram as many units on a floor as Toronto does (more wall increases the likelihood of more spandrel)

japrologue · Apr 21, 2016

those claddings are really disappointing...

modernizt · Apr 21, 2016

The reason for so much spandrel glass in Toronto is the recent changes to the building code - 60/40 rule for solid wall areas vs. vision glass, and what I see as a reluctance to push against the recent tradition of all-window-wall buildings in Toronto.

I imagine eventually we'll start to see more solutions along the lines of 60 Richmond / Picasso condos, etc. etc., but the dogged pursuit of expanses of window-wall glazing, combined with the new OBC rules on glazing ratios, is resulting in what you see here.

It is no longer feasible to create a CASA, or a Murano, or anything with such a high proportion of glazing on the building envelope. End of an era - no longer possible. Which is sad on one hand, because glazing can be very elegant. That said, the new 2030 targets are necessary and we need to get serious about building thermal performance. The cooling load or heating requirements for a window-wall tower can be staggering.

Until some sort of magical cladding system is developed that has the transparency of glass without the heat loss / solar gain / broken-gaskets-that-fail-after-10-years issues of window wall*, or the similar issues found in curtainwall systems, these sorts of regulations are necessary. I absolutely love expansive glazing on buildings, so it saddens me that it's necessary. But for the sake of the environment, I think these new regulations are the right thing to do. And a skilled architect is able to find ways to achieve this 60/40 split and still achieve areas that are fully glazed without spandrel panels, if that is what they truly want to achieve. (Though it means that other parts of the building will need to be a high proportion of solid wall area to make this permissible.)

*We're actually lucky that the regulations are only targeting vision glass areas versus areas that window wall or curtain wall are allowed. Because glass, as a material, is not always the issue so much as all the gaps, joints, and components in a window wall system that can fail. We can control solar gain through sun-shading, for example, but we can't do much about failing components in a window wall system, gaskets that crack and break in the cold of a Toronto winter, or the thermal-bridging issues caused by mullions and their attachment to the building structure.

WOOSH. This post wasn't supposed to end up so long. But I hope it was at least interesting or informative to someone!

Armour · Apr 22, 2016

modernizt said:
The reason for so much spandrel glass in Toronto is the recent changes to the building code - 60/40 rule for solid wall areas vs. vision glass, and what I see as a reluctance to push against the recent tradition of all-window-wall buildings in Toronto.

I imagine eventually we'll start to see more solutions along the lines of 60 Richmond / Picasso condos, etc. etc., but the dogged pursuit of expanses of window-wall glazing, combined with the new OBC rules on glazing ratios, is resulting in what you see here.

It is no longer feasible to create a CASA, or a Murano, or anything with such a high proportion of glazing on the building envelope. End of an era - no longer possible. Which is sad on one hand, because glazing can be very elegant. That said, the new 2030 targets are necessary and we need to get serious about building thermal performance. The cooling load or heating requirements for a window-wall tower can be staggering.

Until some sort of magical cladding system is developed that has the transparency of glass without the heat loss / solar gain / broken-gaskets-that-fail-after-10-years issues of window wall*, or the similar issues found in curtainwall systems, these sorts of regulations are necessary. I absolutely love expansive glazing on buildings, so it saddens me that it's necessary. But for the sake of the environment, I think these new regulations are the right thing to do. And a skilled architect is able to find ways to achieve this 60/40 split and still achieve areas that are fully glazed without spandrel panels, if that is what they truly want to achieve. (Though it means that other parts of the building will need to be a high proportion of solid wall area to make this permissible.)

*We're actually lucky that the regulations are only targeting vision glass areas versus areas that window wall or curtain wall are allowed. Because glass, as a material, is not always the issue so much as all the gaps, joints, and components in a window wall system that can fail. We can control solar gain through sun-shading, for example, but we can't do much about failing components in a window wall system, gaskets that crack and break in the cold of a Toronto winter, or the thermal-bridging issues caused by mullions and their attachment to the building structure.

WOOSH. This post wasn't supposed to end up so long. But I hope it was at least interesting or informative to someone!

So what is the rationale here?: too much glass leads to heat loss, therefore buildings are required to burn more energy, which apparently contributes to climate change (never mind that the climate changes all the time, on its own, and has done so since the dawn of time)?

Nastapoka · Apr 22, 2016

We aren't actually going to debate climate change now are we? The forum can't sink that low.

Nastapoka · Apr 22, 2016

modernizt said:
The reason for so much spandrel glass in Toronto is the recent changes to the building code - 60/40 rule for solid wall areas vs. vision glass, and what I see as a reluctance to push against the recent tradition of all-window-wall buildings in Toronto.

I imagine eventually we'll start to see more solutions along the lines of 60 Richmond / Picasso condos, etc. etc., but the dogged pursuit of expanses of window-wall glazing, combined with the new OBC rules on glazing ratios, is resulting in what you see here.

It is no longer feasible to create a CASA, or a Murano, or anything with such a high proportion of glazing on the building envelope. End of an era - no longer possible. Which is sad on one hand, because glazing can be very elegant. That said, the new 2030 targets are necessary and we need to get serious about building thermal performance. The cooling load or heating requirements for a window-wall tower can be staggering.

Until some sort of magical cladding system is developed that has the transparency of glass without the heat loss / solar gain / broken-gaskets-that-fail-after-10-years issues of window wall*, or the similar issues found in curtainwall systems, these sorts of regulations are necessary. I absolutely love expansive glazing on buildings, so it saddens me that it's necessary. But for the sake of the environment, I think these new regulations are the right thing to do. And a skilled architect is able to find ways to achieve this 60/40 split and still achieve areas that are fully glazed without spandrel panels, if that is what they truly want to achieve. (Though it means that other parts of the building will need to be a high proportion of solid wall area to make this permissible.)

*We're actually lucky that the regulations are only targeting vision glass areas versus areas that window wall or curtain wall are allowed. Because glass, as a material, is not always the issue so much as all the gaps, joints, and components in a window wall system that can fail. We can control solar gain through sun-shading, for example, but we can't do much about failing components in a window wall system, gaskets that crack and break in the cold of a Toronto winter, or the thermal-bridging issues caused by mullions and their attachment to the building structure.

WOOSH. This post wasn't supposed to end up so long. But I hope it was at least interesting or informative to someone!

The 60/40 ratio in the code is part of a "prescriptive" path of energy performance compliance. It's a relatively straightforward but obviously limited route to code compliance. There is also an energy modeling compliance route which allows for exceptions. If performance is the ultimate goal, which it absolutely should be, the prescriptive method must be overhauled or eliminated all together. 40% glazing is great in theory but only if it is paired with much higher performing solid assemblies.

modernizt · Apr 22, 2016

I too find it to be too prescriptive and limiting. I just feel as though we need to do something. But I totally agree with you.

It's amazing what can be achieved. Moriyama Teshima's new building at Sheridan's MCC campus has incredibly low energy usage. It's very inspiring to see that those sorts of results are possible.