Toronto Clear Spirit | 131.36m | 40s | Cityscape | a—A

[Hydrogen]

I still think that this is one brick wall about which the preservationists might want to think twice before beating their collective heads against - is that grammatically correct?

You've clearly failed to take into account that many of the buildings could be easily judged as unredeeming, and thus worthy of destruction. Your choice in seeing things in such a way is as subjective as any other. So why not then just tear the whole District down, or utilize its remnants as a condo ammenity?

Once again, many of us were not discussing preservation in the extreme, or converting the area into a museum; we were noting the problems of situating thirty storey buildings within the perimeter of the District.

 

[jaborandi]

You've clearly failed to take into account that many of the buildings could be easily judged as unredeeming, and thus worthy of destruction. Your choice in seeing things in such a way is as subjective as any other. So why not then just tear the whole District down, or utilize its remnants as a condo ammenity?

Once again, many of us were not discussing preservation in the extreme, or converting the area into a museum; we were noting the problems of situating thirty storey buildings within the perimeter of the District.

and your choice in seeing things is not subjective?

 

[Hydrogen]

If you are looking for my perspective, I have stated early on that I await the completion of this project to know what my exact feelings of it are. I have even stated that it may turn out better than I thought, but that I am greatly concerned about how and where the buildings are being situated (and not concerned about the new buildings themselves). I would assume that a reader would note the subjectivity of not only that sentiment, but recognize that this very debate suggests a great degree in terms of points of view. It's all there for you to read.

But with respect to the efforts to preserve architectural elements of the District, I think it is fair to say that such buildings will do much to completely alter that effort of preservation - the preservation of the District as a collection of Victorian-era factory architecture. There is a relatively high likelihood that these new developments will be some of the tallest buildings in the general vicinity, and they will be situated next to and within what might be the only collection of low-rise buildings in that same area. So I think there is a reason for concern if one actually cares about this District as a defined place.

 

[syn]

An example of a much older, nicer, greater UNESCO heritage site: Hoi An, Vietnam. As much as a I love the Distillery District, it pales in comparison to Hoi An.

I don't think you can compare districts like this. The Distillery may not be as old, and it may not have the same degree of history, but it's still a very unique site the city should treasure.

 

[syn]

If you are looking for my perspective, I have stated early on that I await the completion of this project to know what my exact feelings of it are. I have even stated that it may turn out better than I thought, but that I am greatly concerned about how and where the buildings are being situated (and not concerned about the new buildings themselves). I would assume that a reader would note the subjectivity of not only that sentiment, but recognize that this very debate suggests a great degree in terms of points of view. It's all there for you to read.

But with respect to the efforts to preserve architectural elements of the District, I think it is fair to say that such buildings will do much to completely alter that effort of preservation - the preservation of the District as a collection of Victorian-era factory architecture. There is a relatively high likelihood that these new developments will be some of the tallest buildings in the general vicinity, and they will be situated next to and within what might be the only collection of low-rise buildings in that same area. So I think there is a reason for concern if one actually cares about this District as a defined place.

Very well put. I feel the same way.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I don't think you can compare districts like this. The Distillery may not be as old, and it may not have the same degree of history, but it's still a very unique site the city should treasure.

You're right and I do not deny it. I love the distillery. But the discussion was about UNESCO world heritage sites and this was a prime example of a historic district that has been well-preserved and showcases unique and important cultural (and architectual) relevance to the history of the region. Sound familiar? While comparing them is like apples and pineapples there are efforts in place to preserve the character of the Vietnamese district such as prohiting cars or the destruction of any building that vaulted it to UNESCO world heritage site status. I believe that if the dissillery district were to have had a shot it would have needed to remain as authentic as possible and be protected by as much alteratations as possible.

Having said that, I'm not against the highrise development (love the renderings). Still, I do not think the area is a legitimate contender for UNESCO. I'd welcome the change to eat my words and be told I was wrong when/if the area receives such an honour.

 

[syn]

You're right and I do not deny it. I love the distillery. But the discussion was about UNESCO world heritage sites and this was a prime example of a historic district that has been well-preserved and showcases unique and important cultural (and architectual) relevance to the history of the region. Sound familiar? While comparing them is like apples and pineapples there are efforts in place to preserve the character of the Vietnamese district such as prohiting cars or the destruction of any building that vaulted it to UNESCO world heritage site status. I believe that if the dissillery district were to have had a shot it would have needed to remain as authentic as possible and be protected by as much alteratations as possible.

Having said that, I'm not against the highrise development (love the renderings). Still, I do not think the area is a legitimate contender for UNESCO. I'd welcome the change to eat my words and be told I was wrong when/if the area receives such an honour.

Well, considering the age of the District, it probably wouldn't be up for consideration for a while. I do generally agree with you though; these developments definitely damage it's chances.

 

[Conrad Black]

Still, I do not think the area is a legitimate contender for UNESCO

Its an old factory and not a significant one at that. UNESCO its not. What's next a UNESCO designation for the next GM or Ford factory that closes?

 

[Jarrek]

Its an old factory and not a significant one at that. UNESCO its not. What's next a UNESCO designation for the next GM or Ford factory that closes?

You're absolutely right about that. UNESCO sites traditionally cover large areas of land, Ie: Old Quebec City, or Rideau Canal. Distillery District unfortunately doesn't fall into that category - and certainly not now with these towers being built smack in the middle.

 

[ShonTron]

I would actually think a UNESCO designation for either Ford Highland Park (what's left of it - about 2/3 the original buildings are still there) or Ford River Rouge would be in order (once an awesome symbol of American industrial might).

It's a little much for the Distillery District to get UNESCO status. It's unique to Toronto for sure (and this is one of my main reasons why I have trouble with Clear Spirit), but not to the world.

The Rideau Canal is 175 years old, and is very well protected - it's practically a linear National Park, with original military blockhouses along the way, Martello Towers and forts protecting it in Kingston, locks still operated by hand, and running by many historic areas, including Parliament. It's worthy.

 

[Tewder]

Its an old factory and not a significant one at that. UNESCO its not. What's next a UNESCO designation for the next GM or Ford factory that closes?

...but, isn't it the largest collection of Victorian/industrial-age architecture left surviving in North America? It was also the largest distillery in the British Empire at one point. I don't know, to me it seems pretty significant for UNESCO designation.

 

[urbandreamer]

^no that's a toronto myth imo. Go to montreal--thousands of victorian industrial buildings all around--point st charles probably has more victorian industrial buildings than all of ontario! (Well there's hamilton of course.) Gastown in Van is a large Victorian nabe that's well preserved. Then there's all those rust belt American cities.

So, just another narrow-minded Toronto myth!

 

[interchange42]

Before declaring it a myth, why not present us with some facts instead of the generalized and difficult to prove claims you just made?

42

 

[Urban Shocker]

Hydrogen claims that "many of the buildings could be easily judged as unredeeming" as Rack House 'M' - but he doesn't provide examples. Which buildings, Hydrogen, and why? The Cooperage? The Maltings? The Smoke House? The collection of low-rise matching buildings such as the two that house the Young Centre? The famous stone distillery complex built in 1870? Which of these buildings is it easy to judge as unredeeming, and why?

The approach that all opinions are equal - that everything said about the significance of this or that building is "subjective" - that the basis for standards of what has architectural and artistic significance can't be defined is just plain silly. While posing as someone concerned about standards he slides away from discussing the widely varied quality and significance of the existing buildings, and the ability of the design process to make improvements that will recreate the district as something new and coherent. He raises the issue of adding condo buildings to "a defined place" but doesn't say why he thinks this will "completely alter" the effort to preserve "a collection of Victorian-era factory architecture" - which it will remain.

He uses the claim that many of the buildings could be easily judged as unredeeming as a wedge issue to bluster, "So why not then just tear the whole District down ...?" as if doing so was a part of the development plan - which it isn't.

 

[jaborandi]

If you are looking for my perspective, I have stated early on that I await the completion of this project to know what my exact feelings of it are. I have even stated that it may turn out better than I thought, but that I am greatly concerned about how and where the buildings are being situated (and not concerned about the new buildings themselves). I would assume that a reader would note the subjectivity of not only that sentiment, but recognize that this very debate suggests a great degree in terms of points of view. It's all there for you to read.

But with respect to the efforts to preserve architectural elements of the District, I think it is fair to say that such buildings will do much to completely alter that effort of preservation - the preservation of the District as a collection of Victorian-era factory architecture. There is a relatively high likelihood that these new developments will be some of the tallest buildings in the general vicinity, and they will be situated next to and within what might be the only collection of low-rise buildings in that same area. So I think there is a reason for concern if one actually cares about this District as a defined place.

nay nay Hydrogen, be thee not discomfitted.

The bottom line here is clearly the bottom line. If you can advance a business model which allows for financial sustainability without erecting a couple of point towers, I'm sure we would all like it if you would share it with us. Given the need for a revenue stream from residential usage in order to make the district viable, the loss of a very ugly structure is a small price to pay. The addition of Clewesian towers is a bonus. If they were something naff, say by Tridel, I would also be objecting - but to the design, not the scale. Clewes and the Distillery District is not only an agreeable compromise but also a brilliant match.