Toronto Clear Spirit | 131.36m | 40s | Cityscape | a—A

I'll admit that I've looked for and failed to find the details, but a few years back, some heritage activists certainly did argue that the distillery district should be preserved intact, possibly as part of a museum of industrial heritage, instead of being commercially redeveloped. Obviously they lost the argument, and there was no funding available for such a venture anyway, but the case was made.
 
I'll admit that I've looked for and failed to find the details, but a few years back, some heritage activists certainly did argue that the distillery district should be preserved intact, possibly as part of a museum of industrial heritage, instead of being commercially redeveloped. Obviously they lost the argument, and there was no funding available for such a venture anyway, but the case was made.

The case isn't being made here though.
 
Well, in a sense, it's too late for the case to be made now.

But really, if you want to declare various currently unrestored/unused rackhouses "ugly" and use them as an alibi, how is that different from declaring the Nathan Phillips Square walkway "ugly" and using *that* as an alibi?

It's like, for people like US, there's a double standard here...
 
But really, if you want to declare various currently unrestored/unused rackhouses "ugly" and use them as an alibi, how is that different from declaring the Nathan Phillips Square walkway "ugly" and using *that* as an alibi?

Exactly; this method has often been employed as a means to redevopment.
 
unimaginative2 claims that "ugliness is obviously subjective". While it is his right to believe that, say, Rack House 'M' is the loveliest structure ever built and the Parthenon is the ugliest, there are standards of aesthetic beauty in design, architecture, visual art, music etc. that can be appreciated and generally agreed on if not quantified. Based on the renderings I've seen, I'll wager that the low-rise contemporary podium building of Clear Spirit, which will be closer in scale to the old surrounding buildings than the windowless hulk of Rack House 'M' that it'll replace, will be an improvement not just because people will actually live in it. Rack Houses 'G' and 'J' are smaller, similar to the Tank Houses that form the Young Centre, and fit the character of those other buildings. There are further enhancements, in scale with the established character of the old buildings and the site, happening elsewhere - the podium of Pure Spirit and the low-rise arm building at the south end of the site create laneway spaces between buildings - and the brick and wood of the demolished Rack House will be incorporated in the new structures, further linking the demolished old with the built new.

The "let's hide the parking garage" argument reminds me a bit of the "shameful opera house loading dock that isn't desguised as something else" point of view.
 
I don't think anyone has argued that the Distillery be preserved as a museum, so there is no need to raise that strawman argument..

The 'museum' argument is not a false one, essentially it is your line of thinking taken to the extreme: Once you start using words like 'appropriate' or 'reasonable' to shore up your position the only difference between your argument and the museum one is a matter of degree. At the end of the day you are implicitly trying to circumscribe what should be built on the site according to your own parameters, your own sensibility, your own aesthetic (size, scale and design), and on your own feelings of what is appropriate or not (See below).

The issue is appropriate development both immediately surrounding and directly within the area of the Distillery District. As for perverting history, spare me. Not once have I suggested restarting a Distillery in the area. The issue is about appropriate development...

This truly is the strawman argument: as you have already stated, that which the museum preservationist crowd believes to be 'appropriate' is extremely more drastic than what you feel is 'appropriate', which is different still from what US or myself might feel it to be... Who's right? Who gets to define what's 'appropriate'?

Yes, it is a matter of degree, because no matter how good something is, there can always be too much of it. I think this is such a case. There is too much development being planned around and directly within this small collection of buildings

Looking at the market forces and planning forces at play here that would not seem to be the case.


There is plenty of room immediately east. In terms of design, would it be difficult to suggest setting the taller buildings further back from the immediate area of the Distillery? Would it be so wrong to suggest building more to scale within the immediate area? Would any of this be so unreasonable? I'd like to see an argument that says it is so....

... but you've already seen that argument: 'reasonable' is pretty synonomous with 'appropriate' in this context. So, unless you're going to enact bilaws to legislate the parameters of development in and around the site, similar to those in towns like Niagara-on-the-Lake or 'olde' Oakville then I think you have to accept that development will occur according to market forces, city and planning objectives and public demand.

The buildings themselves and the site have been saved, beautifully restored and readapted in ways that will hopefully better ensure their sustainability. That is no small victory for those of us - myself included - who love Toronto heritage architecture.


The Distillery can be considered an impetus development, but why does development automatically mean surrounding it with three very tall buildings right within the area? Is that all development means to you? Why the fixation with faux Victorians as the only possible alternative to what is going to be built in the area? It seems more than just a little odd to suggest such an either/or scenario, and as a result to close one's mind to the possible range of alternatives.

I concede that I'm forcing a point here. Obviously there are other alternatives to faux Victorians. I'm just not personally as disappointed with highrise development at this site as others here are, and I'm actually fairly pleased with the quality of the projects that have already started. Then again, I tend to like the contrast of old with new, I like to see what is hopefully a new neighbourhood emerging and evolving, and I think the Distillery has the potential to become a very desirable and successful dynamic 'neighbourhood' by attracting urban density, along with quality new design to complement the truly special and unique older architecture already there.
 
The 'museum' argument is not a false one, essentially it is your line of thinking taken to the extreme: Once you start using words like 'appropriate' or 'reasonable' to shore up your position the only difference between your argument and the museum one is a matter of degree. At the end of the day you are implicitly trying to circumscribe what should be built on the site according to your own parameters, your own sensibility, your own aesthetic (size, scale and design), and on your own feelings of what is appropriate or not (See below).

I concede that I'm forcing a point here. Obviously there are other alternatives to faux Victorians. I'm just not personally as disappointed with highrise development at this site as others here are, and I'm actually fairly pleased with the quality of the projects that have already started. Then again, I tend to like the contrast of old with new, I like to see what is hopefully a new neighbourhood emerging and evolving, and I think the Distillery has the potential to become a very desirable and successful dynamic 'neighbourhood' by attracting urban density, along with quality new design to complement the truly special and unique older architecture already there.

Tewder, let's get this clear, I have never suggested maintaining the area as a museum. I am more than in favour of development in the area so long as that development is in an appropriate manner. Fascinating that words such as "appropriate" and "reasonable" bother you so much, or that you can only view them as a means to supporting a stance for museum preservation. What is so wrong with such terms? Why would you so grossly misconstrue what I said and assume these words relate directly with the establishment of this district as a museum? Is this not a case of your own subjective biases making their way right into the light with respect to this kind of limitation? One can turn this around and ask: are you believer in the unreasonable or a promoter of the inappropriate? One would hope not.

As to subjective points of view, you're not trying to suggest that you have the objective, accurate and singularly correct view as to what is proper development for the area (or is it a case of anything goes because you like it)? As to circumscribing what is, or should built, remember that this project is under way. I have little more to do than to comment on it. As such, your just going to have to put up with the commentary, because regardless how this project turns out, everyone will have to live with it.
 
The "let's hide the parking garage" argument reminds me a bit of the "shameful opera house loading dock that isn't desguised as something else" point of view.

You appear to dislike points of view that don't sit well with you own point of view.

Yeah, I hope they hide the parking garage away. And I hope it looks good. Why is that sentiment so hard to stomach?
 
Well the whole idea of hiding something that isn't illegal or immoral seems a bit silly. Driving, like delivering stuff to the opera house, isn't either of those things. So, levels of parking at the Distillery District shouldn't have to be hidden, really.
 
I didn't know we were talking about the opera house again.

I think that lining a street with an ugly parking lot looks crappy, you think such a thought is silly. I'll bet you bottom dollar that most people would not mind seeing an ugly parking lot hidden from view with a facade, no matter how silly some people think that is.
 
Dahlink! Veee'll never stop talking about ze opera house!

My most favourite visible, unashamed, stacked parking lot of all time is at 77 Elm Street. We know there are cars in there, we can see them peeking out at us ...
 
The "let's hide the parking garage" argument reminds me a bit of the "shameful opera house loading dock that isn't desguised as something else" point of view.

Oh dear, how could I have forgotten!

You like your lots naked, I like mine dressed. Maybe I just like to be teased.
 
^ yeah, I think I quite prefer mine dressed. I mean, I prefer not to have them at all, but if they must be there, I'd rather they weren't so outright offensive, and, here's that word--ugly. Maybe it's not that you like to be teased, maybe it's that you'd rather not know what's under those clothes. For a very good reason, I might add.
 

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