Toronto/Chicago comparisons

[diminutive]

Just how are people supposed to get from the Canadian Tire to the Adult Video store with that barrier there....see, elevated transit looms over every day life!

You are forgetting though, surface LRT will convert Eglinton East into a charming, European inspired mixed use community. A community which would be utterly destroyed by the vicissitudes of an elevated guideway.

Obviously I'm saying his tongue in cheek, but reading some perspectives (Christopher Hume's article on Eglinton East & transit), it does seem like surface LRT transit planning is becoming too intimately bound up with the Avenues program. Not that design and transit aren't linked, but building an LRT wont change the fact it's a >200ft wide corridor in Scarborough surrounded by big box parking lots.

 

[doady]

Do you really want life in Toronto to be like this?

[video=youtube;S65lJGs7YC8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S65lJGs7YC8[/video]

 

[TheTigerMaster]

but building an LRT wont change the fact it's a >200ft wide corridor in Scarborough surrounded by big box parking lots.

Why did the 1950s have to happen! Screwed up urban planning in everywhere but Old Toronto!

 

[RC8]

Take this stretch of the Canada Line. Is it honestly such a terrible built environment compared to a hypothetical LRT-ized Eglinton East? Can you quantify the loss?

Yes. If that was surface LRT I would probably be able to board it right there (and get the hell away from there!).

I've lived in isolated suburbs and I understand why people want these elevated lines. I think it's very important that people are able to move through urban regions using transit. But the truth is that instead of just trying to give people better access to downtown, we should be making our suburbs destinations in their own right.

Surface LRTs should help turn suburbia into more complete and functional neighourhoods, while systems like GO (with increased frecuencies) should do the express service thing.

 

[nfitz]

Seriously, NO ONE who is arguing for elevated transit wants anything more than the LRT out of the way of their car.

We're elevating the Eglinton line over Black Creek Drive because they want LRT out of the way of their car?

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

We're elevating the Eglinton line over Black Creek Drive because they want LRT out of the way of their car?

My apologies for derailing the TO/Chi-town thread. I'll post where appropriate from now on.

Nfitz -- I was speaking about all the folks proposing various elevated tracks in Scarborough.

TTM/Dim -- Neither of your arguments make much sense in the context of elevating in Scarborough. LRT-priority signals are a vastly cheaper way to avoid delays, given a ROW. There's very little reason to elevate except to get the tracks out of the way for car drivers. And, I happen to be one of those folks that don't consider the Gardiner a barrier, but you absolutely cannot be someone who has ever walked around downtown Toronto and seriously make the argument that the railroad tracks/Gardiner are not a barrier. I challenge you to walk/bike from the Don to Fort York. I'm not advocating we do anything about the tracks (we need them) nor even the Gardiner (although it looks like it might go), but to say they're not a barrier is ridiculous.

 

[nfitz]

Nfitz -- I was speaking about all the folks proposing various elevated tracks in Scarborough.

My point was saying that "NO ONE who is arguing for elevated transit wants anything more than the LRT out of the way of their car" is clearly false. A majority perhaps, but NO ONE?

 

[diminutive]

I've lived in isolated suburbs and I understand why people want these elevated lines. I think it's very important that people are able to move through urban regions using transit. But the truth is that instead of just trying to give people better access to downtown, we should be making our suburbs destinations in their own right.

Surface LRTs should help turn suburbia into more complete and functional neighourhoods, while systems like GO (with increased frecuencies) should do the express service thing.

Eglinton East already has frequent local stop service through buses. Over shorter distances I'm not sure LRT's speed advantage would translate into huge time savings, given presumably lower service headways and wider stop spacing.

That's not meant to knock LRT, just pointing out that LRT won't magically create 'destinations' along corridors like Eglinton East or Finch West, corridors which already have frequent local services. Building LRT won't make a mix-used Jacobsian urban paradise and building an elevated guideway won't create some kind of inhospitable barrier to development.

To RRR's point about signal and lane priority being 'enough' for Eglinton East, I'd tend to agree. But there hasn't really been a detailed study by Metrolinx or the TTC on comparing an elevated to surface option and the entire elevated option has usually been dismissed purely on its supposed neighbourhood blighting characteristics. Which is stupid.

 

[Jaye101]

Yes. If that was surface LRT I would probably be able to board it right there (and get the hell away from there!).

I've lived in isolated suburbs and I understand why people want these elevated lines. I think it's very important that people are able to move through urban regions using transit. But the truth is that instead of just trying to give people better access to downtown, we should be making our suburbs destinations in their own right.

Surface LRTs should help turn suburbia into more complete and functional neighourhoods, while systems like GO (with increased frecuencies) should do the express service thing.

Agreed 100%...GO as well as the DRL.

 

[Torontovibe]

An elevated subway, along a major street ruins the opportunity to turn that street into a pedestrian friendly environment. Eglinton East may be terrible to walk in now but with the right development, it could be turned into something a lot more dense and walkable. An elevated LRT would seal its fate and is a wrong way to go. Eglinton has great potential to be as nice as Bloor West or the Danforth.

 

[diminutive]

An elevated subway, along a major street ruins the opportunity to turn that street into a pedestrian friendly environment. Eglinton East may be terrible to walk in now but with the right development, it could be turned into something a lot more dense and walkable. An elevated LRT would seal its fate and is a wrong way to go. Eglinton has great potential to be as nice as Bloor West or the Danforth.

This is understating the scale of redevelopment necessary. The area around Eglinton East between Vic Park n Kennedy is roughly the same size as the Central Waterfront area from the rail corridor to the lake between Bathurst and Sherbourne. That area's redevelopment has taken decades of investment by three levels of government and big private sector investment, despite being adjacent to downtown and the lake.

There's a huge weakness in simply assuming that, contingent on an LRT, such a massive redevelopment will just occur. Especially since Eglinton East would be competing for investment against similar corridors like Finch West, Sheppard East, the Portlands and other areas across the 416 & 905. It's possible but it's essentially just a rehash of the 'build it and they will come' assumption, this time in Central Scarborough.

 

[Torontovibe]

Well, of course it would take many years to fully develop but it's more about steady improvement over the long run. Those elevated subways are horrible and just make a street so gloomy, noisy and dirty. I love that Toronto doesn't have to deal with that ugliness. Let's keep it that way.

We have enough problems dealing with our public realm and all the ugly electrical wires, poles, postering, tagging, decrepit buildings and shitty street furniture. We don't need over-head train tracks too!

 

[diminutive]

Well, of course it would take many years to fully develop but it's more about steady improvement over the long run. Those elevated subways are horrible and just make a street so gloomy, noisy and dirty. I love that Toronto doesn't have to deal with that ugliness. Let's keep it that way.

Richmond:

Eglinton East:

Can people really identify what makes the former 'gloomy, noisy and dirty' compared to the later?

 

[RC8]

Eglinton East already has frequent local stop service through buses. Over shorter distances I'm not sure LRT's speed advantage would translate into huge time savings, given presumably lower service headways and wider stop spacing

Buses make me dizzy. I don't ride them unless I absolutely have to.

My transportation preferences are:

1 Walking
2 Cycling
3 LRT/Streetcar
4 Sufrace Train
5 Elevated LRT/HRT
6 Subway
7 Driving
8 Bus

I can't speak for everyone else, but research has shown people are more likely to board a streetcar than a bus. They provide a much more pleasant ride and are easier to understand.

Also, no one is defending the current state of Eglinton East.

 

[Torontovibe]

I also hate riding buses and will avoid them at all cost. I much prefer streetcars/LRT and subways. I think most people (public transit riders) feel the same way.