Toronto/Chicago comparisons

[bleu]

Don't worry I can't count them either. Like I said I think you are the best poster on this site. I just disagree here. I said right now. Chicago maintains a similar standard of bus service with more rapid transit. In the future Toronto will pass it for sure, and do a much better job, but now, February 7 2013. Chicago is just better at this issue. It can take 2 hours to get to downtown from some parts of this city.

Agree.
At present, Chicago is transit is still far superior than Toronto's, although depending on the political will, we will be much better in 20 years.
A significant part of the city is still anywhere close to any rapid transit.

As you can see, Chicago's L pretty much goes to each direction while ours has a much smaller coverage. With after the DLR and eglinton line are finished, we are still not as extensive as Chicago's.

Yes, we have buses/streetcars, but Toronto is huge and those are simply slow moving.

 

[bleu]

I think Chicago and Toronto are very similar in nature. Very similar. But they are at different points in their history.

Toronto is a young city that is at it's peak population currently and still booming. Chicago's peak population is 3.8 million, while it currently sits at 2.7. This explains their far superior heavy rail network, and the differences in architecture and scale, and widespread abandonment. Chicago has been a large city for a lot longer.

Toronto is discovering what kind of city it wants to be and is in the process of planning and building a metropolitan area (GGH) that will probably surpass Los Angeles within our lifetime, imho at least.

Chicago is a bigger city with better architecture and a better rail network. But it's not growing nearly as fast as Toronto. And it has more murders than Canada. It's a great city, though. But by the looks of it, they'll soon be seeing our tail lights.

Toronto is more liveable. Chicago is a bigger city. Toronto has a brighter economic future. Chicago's economy is currently larger.

Toronto: 2.6 million (630 km2) - grew at 4.3% in the last census
Chicago: 2.7 million (606km2) - grew at -6.7% in the last census
Greater Golden Horseshoe: 8,759,312 (31,561.57 km2)
Chicagoland: 9,729,825 (28,120 km2)

Very good and unbiased assessment. Agree with all points.
Toronto is more livable but it is silly to deny Chicago's strength. It is still a very vibrant city with many nice and interesting neighbourhoods.

Are you sure Toronto will surpass LA within our lifetime? LA has been growing pretty fast. Metro LA has 13M, while Golden Horseshoe (if it is comparable) has 8.8M according to your stats. That's a big difference (40%).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Don't worry I can't count them either. Like I said I think you are the best poster on this site. I just disagree here. I said right now. Chicago maintains a similar standard of bus service with more rapid transit. In the future Toronto will pass it for sure, and do a much better job, but now, February 7 2013. Chicago is just better at this issue. It can take 2 hours to get to downtown from some parts of this city.

So come 2022 when the Eglinton Crosstown opens we shall be on the same page regarding the transit issue.

 

[nfitz]

Very good and unbiased assessment.

Great post indeed Jaye101

Are you sure Toronto will surpass LA within our lifetime?

Some looking at this thread would still be around in 2100 based on current life expectancies! So it's entirely possible (okay, I'm cheating, and holding a baby who was looking at the monitor while I type this).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Agree.
At present, Chicago is transit is still far superior than Toronto's, although depending on the political will, we will be much better in 20 years.
A significant part of the city is still anywhere close to any rapid transit.

As you can see, Chicago's L pretty much goes to each direction while ours has a much smaller coverage. With after the DLR and eglinton line are finished, we are still not as extensive as Chicago's.
View attachment 10228

Yes, we have buses/streetcars, but Toronto is huge and those are simply slow moving.

And the crazy thing is Toronto is much more active, we have double the ridership. Wait till those new projects openup. The system Chicago has in underused.

So come 2022 when the Eglinton Crosstown opens we shall be on the same page regarding the transit issue.

Yes sir. We shall be.

 

[bleu]

And the crazy thing is Toronto is much more active, we have double the ridership. Wait till those new projects openup. The system Chicago has in underused.

We are comparing capacity here, not ridership. No need to bring this into the discussion.
Chicago has lower ridership because it is much cheaper to own a car there, and sometimes it is dangerous to take the subway. But they have nothing to do with which city has more extensive rapid transit system, right?

Also Chicago present has a metro system of 173km, Toronto has less than 69km. Eglinton Crosstown will add 19km, not sure how long the DRL will be, but it is hard to imagine it will be 85km long to match Chicago's entire system. We will be lucky to have 100km when both are constructed

I have no idea why some think in 20 years Toronto will have a more extensive subway than Chicago.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

We are comparing capacity here, not ridership. No need to bring this into the discussion.
Chicago has lower ridership because it is much cheaper to own a car there, and sometimes it is dangerous to take the subway. But they have nothing to do with which city has more extensive rapid transit system, right?

Also Chicago present has a metro system of 173km, Toronto has less than 69km. Eglinton Crosstown will add 19km, not sure how long the DRL will be, but it is hard to imagine it will be 85km long to match Chicago's entire system. We will be lucky to have 100km when both are constructed

I have no idea why some think in 20 years Toronto will have a more extensive subway than Chicago.

Very true. And that's my problem. I didn't know it was that bad. I think the DRL will only be Union to the east up to East York. Chicago also provides the same bus service every during the night.

 

[bleu]

So come 2022 when the Eglinton Crosstown opens we shall be on the same page regarding the transit issue.

How? Toronto's total system is about 40% of Chicago's, a shortage of more than 100km.
We would need 5 Eglinton Crosstown to "be on the same page".
Sometimes reality hurts...

 

[RC8]

Bleu, using your metrics our transit system would be 'better' if there was a subway running under Queen St. instead of the streetcar presently there. I simply can't agree with that.

Chicago's elevated subway system has contributed to the destruction of many of its own neighbourhoods. The lack of light rail on its streets has also.

I think that the pre-amalgamation City of Toronto has much better transit than Chicago. In the outer suburbs both cities made great mistakes, and I don't think it's fair to say either one has particularly good transit. In terms of total coverage, Chicago is superior.

denfromoakvillemilton, one of the reasons why many American cities appear 'cleaner' is because a lot of areas are not 'lived-in', or the amount of pedestrians walking through is not really that substantial. Celebration Square in Mississauga always looks spotless, for instance, whereas nearby Hurontario and Dundas does not.

In any case in low-income areas Toronto has less garbage than Chicago or any other American city I know of.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

How? Toronto's total system is about 40% of Chicago's, a shortage of more than 100km.
We would need 5 Eglinton Crosstown to "be on the same page".
Sometimes reality hurts...

My memory failed me. For whatever reason I was thinking that Toronto and Chicago had similar sized RT system.

That being said, Toronto will have an RT system of 178.5 km to 182.5 km within 15 years. There were some inconsistencies with route length information from the documentation which explains this discrepancy. But it's only 4 km and can be ignored for the purpose of this discussion. Also, neither number includes the SRT extension. I couldn't find any official numbers on the length, but it will certainly be less than 5km.

Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT (19 km)
Etobickoe-Finch West LRT (23.4 km)
Sheppard East LRT (13.6)
Spadina Subway Extension (6.2)
Yonge Subway Extension (6 km)
Pearson Express (23.3 km)
Downtown Relief Line (13 km)
Existing (78.6 km)

Total Approved Toronto Rapid Transit: 182.5 km

I must admit that I'm quite surprised by the amount of rapid transit expansion happening in Toronto. I've never listed and looked at all the transit projects together as a whole. I had to edit this post multiple times to make sure I didn't miscalculate since I was so taken aback by the scale of the projects. The Toronto rapid transit system will more than double in the next 10 years with more being planned. The only larger system in North America will be New York's and Mexico City's. Both cities have a population around 10 million. Impressive.

If you want to be even more optimistic you can include the expected Finch West LRT extension east to Yonge, and the Sheppard Subway extension west to Downsview which would bring the grand total to 191 km of rapid transit in Toronto. And if the City follows the TTC's recommendations and extends the DRL to Eglinton, the rapid transit system will be an additional 6 km longer (197 km total). But the extension is unlikely to happen in the near future.

Of course none of these projects have been approved by Council which is why I haven't included them in the total. I can't stress this enough. Hence the bold.



Some subway lines run outside of Toronto proper. Waterfront LRT is unlikely IMHO.

 

[nfitz]

My memory failed me. For whatever reason I was thinking that Toronto and Chicago had similar sized RT system.

It's a fair mistake. The rapid transit systems both have similar ridership. It's just that Chicago's is much bigger. Which I'm not sure is a point in Chicago's favour ...

 

[Jaye101]

Great post indeed Jaye101

Thank you!

Very good and unbiased assessment. Agree with all points.
Toronto is more livable but it is silly to deny Chicago's strength. It is still a very vibrant city with many nice and interesting neighbourhoods.

Are you sure Toronto will surpass LA within our lifetime? LA has been growing pretty fast. Metro LA has 13M, while Golden Horseshoe (if it is comparable) has 8.8M according to your stats. That's a big difference (40%).

We can be sure of nothing in this life.

However, I believe the quality of life in Canada will rise far above the United States due to prosperity in the energy sector. I predict that the purchasing power of our dollar as well as a shortage of a labour will contribute significantly to the strong growth of most Canadian cities. I also believe the population projections are far understated as the potential for economic output is greater than at any point in our history. There are already job conventions in California for jobs in Alberta. And as the economic output from the west is accelerated through the completion of various pipelines, it will open oil trade to the Pacific (especially China) and Atlantic nations. Coupled with the political instability plaguing the most oil rich nations in the world, and here you have the perfect storm for a very very strong Canada.

But who knows, maybe there will be peace in the Middle East, and China might just become the most eco-friendly nation on the planet.

Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT (19 km)
Etobickoe-Finch West LRT (23.4 km)
Sheppard East LRT (13.6)
Spadina Subway Extension (6.2)
Yonge Subway Extension (6 km)
Pearson Express (23.3 km)
Downtown Relief Line (13 km)
Existing (78.6 km)

Total Approved Toronto Rapid Transit: 182.5 km

Not to mention electrified GO service which will forever change the face of the GTA.

Toronto's future is a very bright one.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It's a fair mistake. The rapid transit systems both have similar ridership. It's just that Chicago's is much bigger. Which I'm not sure is a point in Chicago's favour ...

Probably why I thought they were the same size.

I would say that much lower transit ridership (both metro and regional) in a city and region larger than Toronto with a larger rail system that has lower fares does not reflect well on Chicago. Something is stopping people from riding the rails. Perhaps safety or poor planning is the issue.

It could be a positive for Chicago if this low ridership is due to it being easy to get around the city via car. I doubt it's due to walkability. Chicago has the same or less walkability as Toronto

However, I believe the quality of life in Canada will rise far above the United States due to prosperity in the energy sector. I predict that the purchasing power of our dollar as well as a shortage of a labour will contribute significantly to the strong growth of most Canadian cities. I also believe the population projections are far understated as the potential for economic output is greater than at any point in our history. There are already job conventions in California for jobs in Alberta. And as the economic output from the west is accelerated through the completion of various pipelines, it will open oil trade to the Pacific (especially China) and Atlantic nations. Coupled with the political instability plaguing the most oil rich nations in the world, and here you have the perfect storm for a very very strong Canada.

But who knows, maybe there will be peace in the Middle East, and China might just become the most eco-friendly nation on the planet.

This isn't ever happening. Canada and Toronto have very bright futures indeed.

Not to mention electrified GO service which will forever change the face of the GTA.

Didn't add that to the total since some would argue that GO electrification would be regional rail. It would be unfair to compare Toronto's regional + local rail to Chicago's local.

Even without that Toronto transit system will be very impressive to say the least. At least 183 km, the 3rd largest in NA. Only larger systems are the New York and Mexico City transit systems and they have populations of 10 million. In terms of ridership Toronto transit will be very impressive as well, with 500 million rides per year in 2012. This is the 3rd highest on the continent only being beat by Mexico City and New York. Who knows how high it will be in 15 years?

What's even better is that municipalities will be receiving even more transit funding to spend within the next 15 years. So if all goes as planned the Toronto RT system will be even larger than 183 km in the near future.

 

[bleu]

Probably why I thought they were the same size.

It could be a positive for Chicago if this low ridership is due to it being easy to get around the city via car. I doubt it's due to walkability. Chicago has the same or less walkability as Toronto

I think it is due to both - cheaper and easier to drive around and risk of taking transit in certain areas.
The cost of owning a car in Toronto can easily double that in Chicago, considering the difference in car price, gas and insurance.

Didn't add that to the total since some would argue that GO electrification would be regional rail. It would be unfair to compare Toronto's regional + local rail to Chicago's local..

True. Chicago has a much larger regional train system as well.
Metra has 11 lines and 785 km, Go has 7 lines and 460km.

At least 183 km, the 3rd largest in NA. Only larger systems are the New York and Mexico City transit systems and they have populations of 10 million.

Since when the DRL etc became "approved"?

Canada and Toronto have very bright futures indeed. .

That's for sure!

 

[nfitz]

Since when the DRL etc became "approved"?

Since Metrolinx unveiled the next wave of Big Move projects about 10 weeks ago - http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1080785/metrolinx-unveils-next-wave-of-big-move-projects

It's quite a list:

DRl, Yonge extension to Langstaff, Hurontario LRT, Hamilton LRT, Dundas BRT, Durham-Scarborough BRT, Brampton Queen RT (LRT or BRT), GO Lakeshore Express Phase 1 (including electrification), GO Kitchener electrification, Union Pearson electrification, GO extensions to Hamilton (CN line near Liuna) and Bowmanville, and more two-way and all-day GO service.

It's early days yet, but they've certainly delivered relatively well on the first wave.