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Toronto/Chicago comparisons

I am talking about Toronto not being the fastest growing city in the world. Only stating the facts. There is no reason to judge other countries' wage as if Canada is all superior, right?

Please indicate where i stated that Toronto was the fastest growing city?

FYI: $5 is RMB35/hour, and college graduate start salary is about RMB 2000-3000 in Shanghai. So there is no way those construction worker can make $5 an hour.

The minimum wage currently in China is the equivalent of $200 a month. And if you think every company is actually following that then you're a bigger fool than i thought.
If you think college graduates are making much more then 500-600$ a month for entry level positions or if construction workers are making a decent living then there's obviously nothing i can say except to maybe pack your bags and go do their jobs and see for yourself.

shanghai grows fast because the country is committed (not so much political bittering and change of plans over and over again). Workers work really hard.

It grows fast because it's a dictatorship with the aspiration to become a superpower.

They don't work 9-5 with 2 hours "coffee breaks" in between. They work 12 or 14 hours a day.

How would you know how they feel about their jobs?

And before you start criticizing their poor work conditions, those workers are willing to work that hard because the more they work, the more they get paid and the more cash they are able to send back to their family in the countryside.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they don't have any laws protecting them from being overworked.

Are you really gonna mock at that? Stop being judgmental. Here in Canada, bus drivers make $60K a year with all the benefits and they still go on strikes demanding more. That's the difference between fast and slow. Too much entitlement.

Again, what if i capped you salary at $30,000/year and told you have no say in it.

You think it is only China? NO, Japan, S. Korea all experience such stages.

Not Japan, they have just as much of an entitlement mentality as do Europeans and North Americans.

Though, i do agree with some of what you're trying to say. Canada, and not only Toronto, has always had a play it safe mentality which is quite frustrating.
The TTC needs a complete overhaul, however we have simple minded politicians with no big vision.
 
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And? Isn't that the point?
It would be easier and quicker for everyone.

We should demolish Maple Leaf Gardens and all the old buildings too.. It'd be easier to build new ones than renovate old ones, and cheaper too.

In fact, every building should look like either CityPlace or Uptown.. Who needs history or character?

Old City Hall is just costing us money to keep. Raze it like they were planning to in the 60's. Same with Union Station.

We need to get an NFL team because the talent in that league is better. Who cares if it kills our 140 year old franchise? We'd get "better" football.
 
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We should demolish Maple Leaf Gardens and all the old buildings too.. It'd be easier to build new ones than renovate old ones, and cheaper too.

In fact, every building should look like either CityPlace or Uptown.. Who needs history or character?

Old City Hall is just costing us money to keep. Raze it like they were planning to in the 60's. Same with Union Station.

We need to get an NFL team because the talent in that league is better. Who cares if it kills our 140 year old franchise? We'd get "better" football.

The ferries can remain.
However, why make everyone pay to use city land? What about families who would like to have picnics there once a week and can't afford to pay the ferry? Or do they not matter? What is wrong with having free easy access to the best park in the city?
What is wrong with a pedestrian bridge exactly.

You're ok with paying the $6.50 however others do not have that luxury.
 
The ferries can remain.
However, why make everyone pay to use city land? What about families who would like to have picnics there once a week and can't afford to pay the ferry? Or do they not matter? What is wrong with having free easy access to the best park in the city?
What is wrong with a pedestrian bridge exactly.

You're ok with paying the $6.50 however others do not have that luxury.

I think a pedestrian bridge would kill the ferries, which I do not want to happen because I think it would be a huge loss for the city.

A lot of public places cost money to get to unfortunately. If people want to get from Corktown to Cherry Beach for free, they walk. If people want to get to the Islands for free, they can swim. :p

That and I am willing to bet all I'm worth that the pedestrian bridge would either never happen or it would be very underwhelming.
 
The ferries can remain.
However, why make everyone pay to use city land? What about families who would like to have picnics there once a week and can't afford to pay the ferry? Or do they not matter? What is wrong with having free easy access to the best park in the city?
What is wrong with a pedestrian bridge exactly.

You're ok with paying the $6.50 however others do not have that luxury.


I think that if we built a pedestrian bridge to the Islands, it would be overrun with people and the romance of the islands would be implacably lost. The for-pay ferry service is very good at limiting demand, thus ensuring that the park still has its idyllic places. The escape on the ferry also is part of the island experience, itself.

My stance is that there are free recreational alternatives to the island just about anywhere else, whether it's beaches or baseball diamonds, so people with limited means aren't getting cheated out of a park. I don't have a problem with this, just as I don't expect subsidized housing to include Rosedale mansions.
 
You are displaying too much home bias here. To be honest, Toronto's waterfront with all the tacky condos is nothing European. You don't see those along the Thames or Seine. It looks more like a typical second tier Asian city to be honest. And i don't consider it "interesting". We may have many real neighbourhoods where people live, but the waterfront is a special and unique location. It shouldn't be used just as another typical neighbourhood where people eat and live, otherwise, why not building 100 condos on the Toronto islands and make it a neighbourhood as well?

Central waterfront belongs to the entire city, not just waterfront dwellers. It is SUPPOSED to be public, beautiful and charming enough to attract both locals and visitors to go and see. In that respect, Chicago did a much great job than we, and denying that is nothing but silly. From a financial perspective, millions of people visit Chicago's spectacular waterfront (spending money there) because of its beauty. On the other hand, we almost never take my friends to the waterfront, because, what's the point of seeing another condo city? I would be embarassed.

regarding growing fast, maybe so in developing countries. But I can name a dozen cities in China, Brazil etc which are growing 5 times faster than Toronto. Compared with Shanghai or Sao Paolo, Toronto is a median sized city growing only modestly. The worlds doesn't just consists of North America and West Europe. "NO city grows faster", really? What about Shanghai adding 6 new subway lines in the past 3-4 years, each year equally the entire TTC system? What about the Shanghai International Financial Center, 492m tall, twice the size of Trump Toronto, taking shorter time to construct? Let's not let the overzealousness blind ourselves into believing something which is far from the truth.

OK, I didn't literally mean the fastest growing in the world, so I should have been more specific. As for Chicago's waterfront, I know that I may be alone in my opinion but I walked all along Chicago's waterfront and I just did not find it interesting to walk around. I'm talking about the area south of the highway. I am NOT talking about Michigan Avenue or Millennium Park. Those are near the waterfront but cut off from it by a large Highway. I consider the highways, the cut off for both Chicago's and Toronto's waterfronts.

I don't think having people live on Queen's Quay, ruins the waterfront. I think it improves it, by adding people year round. Go to Chicago's waterfront in January and you will be the ONLY one there, except at Navy Pier. Toronto's waterfront is used year round. Of course, we have a few blunders like Harbour Castle and a few condos but we have to live with that. We may have few iconic buildings but I saw nothing on Chicago's waterfront as iconic as Ontario Place's pods and Cinesephere. I'll take that over Navy Pier any day. Just because an area looks great from a distance, it doesn't mean it's pedestrian friendly on ground level. Have you ever been to downtown Miami? It looks great in pics but once you walk there, you realize there is nothing there. (where are the people?)

Here's the thing, Chicago's waterfront is very much the same, top to bottom, while Toronto's is so different, all over it's massive length. Compare our waterfront at the bluffs, The Beaches, Tommy Thompson Park, Harbourfront, Centre Island, Ontario Place or Etobicoke's condo area and you will see all those areas look and feel so different from one another. The Museum Campus area of Chicago, is right on the waterfront but is it a good place to walk? Have you walked there? The area is literally surrounded by huge parking lots and is VERY pedestrian unfriendly. There is nowhere to buy a drink or even use a washroom. I know because I was stupid enough to walk there, all the way past the stadium. Guess how many people I saw in that 2 hour walk? ZERO! (on a nice, sunny day) Everyone was in cars and I would have been too if I knew it was just mainly trees and parking lots. (Take a look on Google)

A great waterfront is walkable, pedestrian friendly, diverse and accessible. Despite our bad areas on the waterfront, most of it is like that. I'm not saying Toronto's waterfront is great, I'm just saying I find it more interesting than Chicago's. (once you take out the architectural views, which I realize is a big plus for Chicago) Toronto's waterfront may not be great right now but it has the potential to be. (If the Ford's don't destroy it first) Unlike most people, I do not want a waterfront lined with just parkland. I want diversity. I want the downtown portion to be of higher density with lots of things to do and see. (high on tourist attractions) The outer areas can have parks for sports fields and baseball diamonds. There should be spaces for all kinds of activities but the portion from the Portlands to Ontario Place should be a mix of tourist attractions, residential, commercial and cool parks like Sugar Beach and Sherbourne Common. I think Waterfront Toronto is on the right track, I just wish Corus was more of an iconic building. That's my main gripe. Give me a few major tourist attractions, great restaurants and original, iconic buildings and I will be HAPPY!

You are embarrassed to bring tourists to our waterfront? That's funny, when my family came to visit this summer, we ended up spending more time on the waterfront than anywhere else. They kept wanting to go back there. I guess one man's heaven is another man's hell.
 
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Why do people pay to ride the cable car in San Francisco? Why do people pay to ride in a double-decker bus in London? Why do people pay to ride gondolas in Venice? The ferries are part of the heritage of Toronto, and are a huge part of its character and what makes it unique, just like the red rocket streetcars.

I would easily pay money to take the ferry over walking across some half assed pedestrian bridge (it's Toronto, so you know it won't be a beautiful Calatrava bridge or anything), because it's just part of the city and part of the experience. To me it wouldn't be Toronto without the island ferries (and streetcars too actually).

Agreed 100%!
 
Given that Humber Bay Shores got a Calatrava bridge, I'm sure something special could be done to bridge the islands.
You know, I sorta like visiting places that have some consistency amony their public infrastructure items. The same design - scaled to fit of course - could actually look really nice connecting to the island at the airport, and perhaps eventually at the other end of the island if it's feasible. Anything along the waterfront could be themed to match, really - it's a very appealing and effective design.

Note - it was a Toronto architectural firm that designed it IIRC, though it does seem Santiago inspired. Calatrava designed the island bridge that Miller "swept" out of construction.
 
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Note - it was a Toronto architectural firm that designed it IIRC, though it does seem Santiago inspired.

A Toronto firm designed the bridge over the Humber. Calatrava did the bridge over Mimico Creek. (Yes, the Humber bridge is the bigger and more obvious landmark; but, still)
 
Marko, this is the bridge you're thinking of:

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This is the bridge he's talking about (designed by Calatrava):

image030.jpg
 
I'm talking about the area south of the highway. I am NOT talking about Michigan Avenue or Millennium Park. Those are near the waterfront but cut off from it by a large Highway. I consider the highways, the cut off for both Chicago's and Toronto's waterfronts.

I'm not criticising your opinion, you are entitled to it and you make some good points with which I agree. However, I do feel it is a little self-serving to dismiss Michigan Ave/Millennium Park/Grant Park etc. from your definition of the Chicago waterfront. They are key elements regardless of which side of the highway they fall because at the end of the day they define how the city meets the lake and draw people to and fro, which is sort of one of the main criticisms of what is not being done in Toronto.


A great waterfront is walkable, pedestrian friendly, diverse and accessible. Despite our bad areas on the waterfront, most of it is like that. I'm not saying Toronto's waterfront is great, I'm just saying I find it more interesting than Chicago's. (once you take out the architectural views, which I realize is a big plus for Chicago) Toronto's waterfront may not be great right now but it has the potential to be.

I agree that accessibility is important but I disagree that most would find Toronto's waterfront more accessible than Chicago's or teeming with more diversity/attractions. Condos are not attractions. In Chicago there are accessible central beaches, open parkland, cultural attractions, museums, performing arts spaces etc, etc, all along the central waterfront and it is extremely accessible, made so by Millennium Park/Grant Park and so on.

That said, I do like the approach Toronto is taking of building living communities on the waterfront. I would just like to see more open, inviting space on the lake throughout the central stretch, and better interconnectivity with the city. Fortunately there are still many opportunities to realize this!
 

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