Glen
Senior Member
What tax dollars are you referring to?
Toronto Casino Woodbine | 31.85m | 11s | One Toronto Gaming | CGL Architects
What tax dollars are you referring to?
marcus_a_j
Senior Member
I thought the City was offering a form of TIF (tax incremental financing) for Woodbine Live! to go ahead. Maybe that's what c_of_c is referring to as "taxpayer dollars". If this was the case, the City is not using the tax dollars to finance the project, but giving a tax break for x number of years to spurn development. The City would start to collect all of property taxes a few years down the road after the project is built out.
TonyW
New Member
Actually, the developers will receive at least two different types of public subsidy so far. One is a property tax rebate called a TIEG, which will mean about $120 million in deferred property taxes over 20 years. The other is a Development Charge exemption that could amount to an additional $8 million or more in cancelled fees (a development charge exemption for TIEG projects was included in the recent revision of the development charges by-law).
I've heard the argument above mentioned a lot before - that property tax rebates aren't really public subsidies because the new tax money being rebated wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the new development. The problem is that residents and commercial/industrial owners pay property taxes at least partially in return for city services. Woodbine Live will receive a huge amount of city services (sewers, water, roads, fire, ambulance, police [especially for the new casino that is doubtlessly on the way]). City staff don't even know how much the development will cost to service! Councillor Adam Vaughan asked this question in council last summer, and no one knew the answer. So the city is basically giving the developers almost $130 million in subsidies over 20 years, without knowing in advance what amount the city will be on the hook for all along. Clearly, this is not sound fiscal planning.
Still, I have no doubt the project will be built. All the right forces (City Hall, Queen's Park, development industry, gaming lobby) are aligned, and when that happens, nothing can get in the way!
I've heard the argument above mentioned a lot before - that property tax rebates aren't really public subsidies because the new tax money being rebated wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the new development. The problem is that residents and commercial/industrial owners pay property taxes at least partially in return for city services. Woodbine Live will receive a huge amount of city services (sewers, water, roads, fire, ambulance, police [especially for the new casino that is doubtlessly on the way]). City staff don't even know how much the development will cost to service! Councillor Adam Vaughan asked this question in council last summer, and no one knew the answer. So the city is basically giving the developers almost $130 million in subsidies over 20 years, without knowing in advance what amount the city will be on the hook for all along. Clearly, this is not sound fiscal planning.
Still, I have no doubt the project will be built. All the right forces (City Hall, Queen's Park, development industry, gaming lobby) are aligned, and when that happens, nothing can get in the way!
Glen
Senior Member
I just find it difficult to call something a subsidy when it would be better classified as a discount.
New residential also does get a break on development fees. Insofar as regular services go, research shows that even at the reduced rate, this non residential development will provide more tax revenue than it will consume in city services.
New residential also does get a break on development fees. Insofar as regular services go, research shows that even at the reduced rate, this non residential development will provide more tax revenue than it will consume in city services.
torontofcfan
New Member
I agree, and besides what are the alternatives? The area and the region desperately need this. We are going to need quite a more developments of this size to keep the GTA competative in the world.
Or we can continue with the auto industry b/c thats been so successful.
torontofcfan
New Member
Gaylord properties are economic powerhouses, they tend to increase the size of the pie, rather than cutting it into smaller pieces. And there is nothing to worry about Toronto would never qualify for one these.
http://www.gaylordentertainmentcompany.com/MediaRoom/Development.htm
We expect the economic output impact of this project during the construction and development phase to be approximately $1.3 billion, with nearly 10,000 jobs and payroll impacts of $456 million (direct and indirect effects).*
"The economic impacts for each year after the hotel and convention center are open are estimated to be approximately $383 million beginning in 2013. Ultimately, Gaylord Chula Vista will provide nearly 3,000 permanent jobs both inside and outside the hotel, with payroll impacts of $125 million annually.
The project will also generate more than $14 million in new local tax revenues annually that will benefit Chula Vista and the San Diego region, including property taxes, tourist occupancy taxes, sales taxes and utility and business taxes."
The plan for the first phase of the Chula Vista bayfront development, which includes the Gaylord Hotel and Convention Center, calls for approximately a $200 million investment in infrastructure, including utilities, roads, the Signature Park expansion and pedestrian streetscape
taal
Senior Member
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Hey im all for developing this site. But i cant see how this specific development would keep the GTA competative in the world..
It actually has been very successfull, just cause the car mfgs are going through some rough times and restructering at the moment does not mean that it has not been one of Ontario,s main industries.
Keep in mind Ontario is second to Michigan as North Americas top car mfg state/province.
Archivist
Senior Member
No gaylords. I weep openly for our second rate status, compared with Nashville, Orlando and Dallas.
torontofcfan
New Member
If they ever were to build here,would it be called "the Gaylord Toronto" or "the Toronto Gaylord"....hmmm wonder if they would incorporate the CN Tower in the logo.
adma
Superstar
If they ever were to build here,would it be called "the Gaylord Toronto" or "the Toronto Gaylord"....hmmm wonder if they would incorporate the CN Tower in the logo.
And this is what Toronto's urban planning establishment would do to you
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Towered is the first person to note what I think is the biggest problem here: Parking. Even with three-story garages, parking could be minimized thereby freeing up that land to be used in wiser ways. Parks? Playing fields? Nurseries? Small ponds? Playgrounds? A small pitch and putt golf course? A recreation center (perhaps by MJM?)? The possibilities are endless and what better place to introduce this sort of mixed use complex/pseudo-urban nature preserve than Toronto, a city which prides itself on its extensive and often intertwining ravine and parks systems.
Instead, we've wisely enlisted a large, successful American firm to 'think really hard' and come up with the same tired scheme they've peddled to several other cities south of the border. I'm not anti-American by any stretch, but I do like to at least delude myself into believing that we Canucks use our cars a little bit less than they do.
Whether that is true is not the case, but in this time of need, economic and otherwise, why not cut the parking down, put what parking is needed in small, well-designed structures and establish express bus routes between the complex and nearby transit hubs (i.e. Subway stations, GO Stations, VIVA Stations, etc.)?
This can be done and it can be done well, especially if the city is chipping in. Let's give the Americans a swift but respectful heave-ho and go for something different, something progressive. If press and hype are what this place is all about then why not skip the local angle and shoot for global status - the first progressive, sustainable, 'urban' mall?
Oh, and Brecker's Song for Bilbao is incredible, just incredible...
Instead, we've wisely enlisted a large, successful American firm to 'think really hard' and come up with the same tired scheme they've peddled to several other cities south of the border. I'm not anti-American by any stretch, but I do like to at least delude myself into believing that we Canucks use our cars a little bit less than they do.
Whether that is true is not the case, but in this time of need, economic and otherwise, why not cut the parking down, put what parking is needed in small, well-designed structures and establish express bus routes between the complex and nearby transit hubs (i.e. Subway stations, GO Stations, VIVA Stations, etc.)?
This can be done and it can be done well, especially if the city is chipping in. Let's give the Americans a swift but respectful heave-ho and go for something different, something progressive. If press and hype are what this place is all about then why not skip the local angle and shoot for global status - the first progressive, sustainable, 'urban' mall?
Oh, and Brecker's Song for Bilbao is incredible, just incredible...
khris
Senior Member
This might be common downtown, but not in Rexdale.
slickpete83
Active Member
I heard a rumour that they want to extend that airport monorail train to woodbine live ???? , that would be a great idea , what do u guys think ???
TOareaFan
Superstar
It would be fine if the developer paid for it and it also linked through the proposed new GO Station on the Georgetown line....giving GO Train users a very convenient (and free) link into the terminals.