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Toronto building boom

Thanos doesn't think that anybody can have an objective and critical discussion about the public realm in Toronto without finding it offensive, it seems it either makes him laugh uncontrollably like someone who should be institutionalized, or it makes him dreadfully insecure.

No, what's funny is you stating in every single discussion that Toronto is in some sort of financial crisis mess. This distorted imagination world of yours is quite entertaining. It's unfortunate that i actually agree 100% with you regarding Toronto's shabby public realm.
And why isn't your discussion with Freshcutgrass in the "shabby public realm" to begin with.
 
Harbourfront Centre is quintessentia Toronto. Something that seems to "work", in a cheap, mediocre way everyone seems to be proud of, and in no attempt to strive for greatness because that will be a "waste of money".

Harbourfront has been an established part of our greater cultural scene for ages, having begun some 40 years ago, and the Centre has programmed all sorts of cultural events of international scope ever since - ranging from the authors' festival to contemporary dance, theatre, the visual arts and exhibitions, housed in several theatres including the Enwave and Fleck, and various galleries, including the Power Plant which opened in 1987 and is Canada's leading gallery devoted exclusively to contemporary art. And the Centre is but one part of Harbourfront, which includes parks, stages and gardens. This may seem "mediocre" to you, but then I suspect that you neither get out much nor know the difference between the price of something and its value.
 
Harbourfront has been an established part of our greater cultural scene for ages, having begun some 40 years ago, and the Centre has programmed all sorts of cultural events of international scope ever since - ranging from the authors' festival to contemporary dance, theatre, the visual arts and exhibitions, housed in several theatres including the Enwave and Fleck, and various galleries, including the Power Plant which opened in 1987 and is Canada's leading gallery devoted exclusively to contemporary art. And the Centre is but one part of Harbourfront, which includes parks, stages and gardens. This may seem "mediocre" to you, but then I suspect that you neither get out much nor know the difference between the price of something and its value.

doesn't really change the fact that it is bad overall. Yes, it is Canada's leading this and that, but to be fair, Canada usually has pretty low standard when it comes to this kind of stuff.
While you suspect I never get out much, I suspect you seldom get out of North America much.
 
Other than your usual generic whine about Toronto not being somewhere else, what precisely is it about the programming, exhibitions and performances at Harbourfront Centre and the related cultural sites along the waterfront that is "bad overall"? What have you been to there lately that doesn't stack up, and with where, and why?
 
He's so possessed by its "mediocrity", he's in no position to judge. IOW he can't see the trees for his fantasy forest.

Of course, if you, Dear Miz Shocker, want to pot/kettle/black the argument, kkgg7 likes Trump. Maybe that tells you something.
 
doesn't really change the fact that it is bad overall.

That was never the "fact" in the first place.

The fact is, Harbourfront doesn't have a big, shiny $23 million dollar bean, and that is why it is inferior to you.
 
Again, more to the point--to kkgg7, Harbourfront is "mediocre". Trump is "world class".
 
He's so possessed by its "mediocrity", he's in no position to judge. IOW he can't see the trees for his fantasy forest.

Of course, if you, Dear Miz Shocker, want to pot/kettle/black the argument, kkgg7 likes Trump. Maybe that tells you something.

if you did read my comments on the Trump Tower thread, you will know I don't like it. The location is awkward, the building design is just OK, the interior is hotel-generic and it adds nothing to our skyline. If you do compare with Trump Tower Chicago, the difference is obvious. But i guess it is good enough for Toronto's usual standard.
 
Other than your usual generic whine about Toronto not being somewhere else, what precisely is it about the programming, exhibitions and performances at Harbourfront Centre and the related cultural sites along the waterfront that is "bad overall"? What have you been to there lately that doesn't stack up, and with where, and why?

I thought we were talking about buidings and public realm here? Whether it has good or bad events has nothing to do with it.
For once, let's not do the "this building is not ugly because it functions quite well" argument.

I have been to a few "cultural events" there. Never impressed. Sometimes the performance was OK, but the stage set-up, the lighting, the seating area are just small town like, reminding me of the casual theatre events at university - simple, low cost, a bit shabby, plus the genric street food at elevated price.
Thought it isn't worth the trouble to walk past the rails and gardiners any more. I guess people from Vaughan or Collingwood or Mississauga will always find it amazingly interesting.
 
I think we're getting mired in polemics here.

Harbourfront Centre gets its job done, and gets it done well, no question... but so does a Toyota Camry. The issue is how much should we pay (or not) for the grander urban gesture? What is the return on the investment and what is the opportunity cost? For Fresh there is no justifiable return on a shiny bean, for example, which for me is like saying there is no return at all on public art... a grand gesture of public art that has become a locally beloved and internationally recognized symbol of Chicago, more to the point.

No, what's funny is you stating in every single discussion that Toronto is in some sort of financial crisis mess.

... which could be argued, but whether in fact it is broke or not doesn't matter when it comes to the public realm because it 'believes' it is. It cries poverty at every turn when it comes to spending on the city ... and this from all sides of the political spectrum where Ford Nations views such spending as gravy and where the opposition views it as at the cost of social programs (bread vs circuses, right?). You do the math!
 
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... which could be argued, but whether in fact it is broke or not doesn't matter when it comes to the public realm because it 'believes' it is. It cries poverty at every turn when it comes to spending on the city ... and this from all sides of the political spectrum where Ford Nations views such spending as gravy and where the opposition views it as at the cost of social programs (bread vs circuses, right?). You do the math!

And i completely agree with you. The city has several revenue tools it can use. But it seems no one really cares. The city is cheap and one can argue that it's due to its residents being cheap.
I've always wondered if this cheapness mentality always existed in the past or it's something fairly new ever since amalgamation. Can anyone provide their opinion on that?
 
For Fresh there is no justifiable return on a shiny bean, for example, which for me is like saying there is no return at all on public art.

This is where you are dead wrong. Put it this way....HC runs on an annual budget of, coincidentally enough, the same cost as a big shiny bean (keeping in mind it was originally $6 million, which "ballooned", ha, to $23 million). Would I justify trading in closing down HC for an entire year and building the big shiny bean instead? of course not. And it's not because I don't like big shiny beans by Kapoor (personally I prefer big shiny bunnies by Koons).

It's the same as preferring building subways, but still preferring Transit City's LRT plan over Rob Ford's subway plan (pretending he really had a subway plan).



I thought we were talking about buidings and public realm here?

MP doesn't actually have many "buildings" (unless you count the parking lot underneath it), and they aren't of notable architecture, so HC wins that one by default.


I have been to a few "cultural events" there. Never impressed. Sometimes the performance was OK, but the stage set-up, the lighting, the seating area are just small town like, reminding me of the casual theatre events at university - simple, low cost, a bit shabby, plus the genric street food at elevated price.
Thought it isn't worth the trouble to walk past the rails and gardiners any more. I guess people from Vaughan or Collingwood or Mississauga will always find it amazingly interesting.

Pah ha ha...so in other words, you have clue what goes on down there. Let's just say you can kiss your career away as a cultural critic.

To get specific,
...HC's site is better than MP's (owing largely to it's waterfront location which provides the nautical feel).
...the Natrel Rink is better than the McCormick Tribune ice rink (and doubles as a water feature when not in use)
...the Power Plant is a world class non-collecting contemporary art gallery, and outclass anything the outdoor Boeing Galleries exhibit in MP (Not to even mention HC's other galleries and installations).
...The Music Garden (although not technically on the 10 acre HC site) is certainly more impressive than MP's Lurie Garden.
...the re-purposed heritage building that houses both the Power Plant gallery and Enwave Theatre is more architecturally attractive than MP's Harris Theatre.
...HC's Waterfront Promenade/Boardwalk/Wavedeck is a more impressive space than MP's Chase Promenade.



So yes, it is very easy to say I would not trade HC for MP. But it isn't as if we lose out on anything...don't forget we also got a fantastic goody bag of architectural/design/cultural/recreational additions to the city lately that far outweighs blowing the wad on a single entity such as MP.
 
This is where you are dead wrong. Put it this way....HC runs on an annual budget of, coincidentally enough, the same cost as a big shiny bean (keeping in mind it was originally $6 million, which "ballooned", ha, to $23 million). Would I justify trading in closing down HC for an entire year and building the big shiny bean instead? of course not. And it's not because I don't like big shiny beans by Kapoor (personally I prefer big shiny bunnies by Koons).

It's the same as preferring building subways, but still preferring Transit City's LRT plan over Rob Ford's subway plan (pretending he really had a subway plan).

MP doesn't actually have many "buildings" (unless you count the parking lot underneath it), and they aren't of notable architecture, so HC wins that one by default.

Pah ha ha...so in other words, you have clue what goes on down there. Let's just say you can kiss your career away as a cultural critic.

To get specific,
...HC's site is better than MP's (owing largely to it's waterfront location which provides the nautical feel).
...the Natrel Rink is better than the McCormick Tribune ice rink (and doubles as a water feature when not in use)
...the Power Plant is a world class non-collecting contemporary art gallery, and outclass anything the outdoor Boeing Galleries exhibit in MP (Not to even mention HC's other galleries and installations).
...The Music Garden (although not technically on the 10 acre HC site) is certainly more impressive than MP's Lurie Garden.
...the re-purposed heritage building that houses both the Power Plant gallery and Enwave Theatre is more architecturally attractive than MP's Harris Theatre.
...HC's Waterfront Promenade/Boardwalk/Wavedeck is a more impressive space than MP's Chase Promenade.



So yes, it is very easy to say I would not trade HC for MP. But it isn't as if we lose out on anything...don't forget we also got a fantastic goody bag of architectural/design/cultural/recreational additions to the city lately that far outweighs blowing the wad on a single entity such as MP.

clap, clap, clap, bravo! brilliant!
 
This is where you are dead wrong. Put it this way....HC runs on an annual budget of, coincidentally enough, the same cost as a big shiny bean (keeping in mind it was originally $6 million, which "ballooned", ha, to $23 million). Would I justify trading in closing down HC for an entire year and building the big shiny bean instead? of course not. And it's not because I don't like big shiny beans by Kapoor (personally I prefer big shiny bunnies by Koons).

You are presenting a false comparison in that nobody is suggesting we take away HC.

... and to follow with your logic it'd be like comparing the construction/infrastructure cost of HC to the yearly operating budget of the St. Lawrence Centre and concluding from it that HC shouldn't be built in a 'I wouldn't want to lose the programming at SLC for a year for a glorified ice rink' kind of way.

I sort of agree with you on the subway/Transit City analysis. They are two new projects being compared and contrasted and the opportunity cost consideration is a little more obvious.


Pah ha ha...so in other words, you have clue what goes on down there. Let's just say you can kiss your career away as a cultural critic
[
All pretensions aside, I can understand Kkgg7's point. The programming at HC is sort of a 'cod liver oil' brand of arts programming, in part because it is so heavily funded. It's kind of like comparing PBS with HBO, in that anything that anybody's going to give me for free isn't likely anything I'd ever pay for anyway.

To get specific,
...HC's site is better than MP's (owing largely to it's waterfront location which provides the nautical feel).
...the Natrel Rink is better than the McCormick Tribune ice rink (and doubles as a water feature when not in use)
...the Power Plant is a world class non-collecting contemporary art gallery, and outclass anything the outdoor Boeing Galleries exhibit in MP (Not to even mention HC's other galleries and installations).
...The Music Garden (although not technically on the 10 acre HC site) is certainly more impressive than MP's Lurie Garden.
...the re-purposed heritage building that houses both the Power Plant gallery and Enwave Theatre is more architecturally attractive than MP's Harris Theatre.
...HC's Waterfront Promenade/Boardwalk/Wavedeck is a more impressive space than MP's Chase Promenade.


All your points are unbelievably moot. HC is an excellent facility for Toronto to have but I think we can all agree that to compare it to MP is simply overreaching.
 
People, globally, talk about MP. Nobody has ever heard of HC. I guess we just do a bad job marketing our treasures...
 

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