Toronto Bloor & Dufferin | 122.35m | 37s | Hazelview | Turner Fleischer

[AHK]

In addition to the above, amenities and maintenance in mid-rises cost the same as in a high-rise on a per-sqft basis, yet it is spread amongst fewer units, ergo, mid-rise tenants typically have higher maintenance fees.

Sorry - but this just does not make sense to me. If the costs are the same on a square foot basis between mid and high rise buildings, and assuming there is, on average, little difference in unit sizes between the two, how would that translate into 'typically have higher maintenance fees' in mid-rise buildings?

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Sorry - but this just does not make sense to me. If the costs are the same on a square foot basis between mid and high rise buildings, and assuming there is, on average, little difference in unit sizes between the two, how would that translate into 'typically have higher maintenance fees' in mid-rise buildings?

From a physical infrastructure point of view, a mid rise building and a high rise building typically share many of the same costs. For instance, you will require elevators regardless if the building is 11 storeys or 30 storeys. (The 30 storey building may require more elevators, but the elevator core is being built regardless)

From an amenities perspective, a concierge in your building lobby or a swimming pool costs the same whether it is in a mid rise building or a high rise buildings.

The difference between a mid rise and a high rise, is that you can divide the (typically similar) costs of infrastructure and amenities between 500 units or 100 units.

 

[Northern Light]

Perhaps I might contribute to this sub thread.

Let me start by saying I am no expert whatsoever in the area of construction costs, beyond a the simple home reno.

So I am not making any assertions based on my own knowledge, but rather sharing something I ran across online that seems somewhat expert (though perhaps others my correct me)

From this blog:

https://torontorealtyblog.com/blog/...fUGC_08tZ6uon8CUlVPaKkyzrqJAU8Jgx19eTbZi2A00k

Though apparently originally from an Altus Group database:

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Perhaps I might contribute to this sub thread.

Let me start by saying I am no expert whatsoever in the area of construction costs, beyond a the simple home reno.

So I am not making any assertions based on my own knowledge, but rather sharing something I ran across online that seems somewhat expert (though perhaps others my correct me)

From this blog:

https://torontorealtyblog.com/blog/...fUGC_08tZ6uon8CUlVPaKkyzrqJAU8Jgx19eTbZi2A00k

Though apparently originally from an Altus Group database:

This is measuring hard construction costs.

Developers use Altus Group to influence their hard cost price estimates within their pro formas. I've been told that the min and max of their price ranges might include outliers, so taking the average of the range is most accurate.

As per the above, the hard construction costs for mid rises is about the same as up to 40 storey high rises. So you have the same costs, but forego upwards to 30 storeys worth of profit.

 

[Jaye101]

This is measuring hard construction costs.

Developers use Altus Group to influence their hard cost price estimates within their pro formas. I've been told that the min and max of their price ranges might include outliers, so taking the average of the range is most accurate.

As per the above, the hard construction costs for mid rises is about the same as up to 40 storey high rises. So you have the same costs, but forego upwards to 30 storeys worth of profit.

Is this also true for wood framed buildings? I believe Ontario recently allowed wood framed buildings to be up to 6 storeys for this very reason. Though I'm not familiar with the hard numbers.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Is this also true for wood framed buildings? I believe Ontario recently allowed wood framed buildings to be up to 6 storeys for this very reason. Though I'm not familiar with the hard numbers.

In theory, wood-frame would be cheaper.

The problem as I understand it is that we don't yet have the industrial capacity to mass-produce the materials in Canada to take advantage of the cost-savings, so current wood-frame projects are importing the material from Europe, which is pretty expensive.

But that could change quickly if the demand for it emerges.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Wood has structural limitations that makes it difficult to use on many mid rise sites - it's very difficult to transfer loads compared to concrete, so the structural design of the buildings generally needs to be much simpler. Things like Mid-rise Avenues stepping to rear neighbourhoods is really difficult to do in wood - they need to more or less be 6 storey slab buildings.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Wood has structural limitations that makes it difficult to use on many mid rise sites - it's very difficult to transfer loads compared to concrete, so the structural design of the buildings generally needs to be much simpler. Things like Mid-rise Avenues stepping to rear neighbourhoods is really difficult to do in wood - they need to more or less be 6 storey slab buildings.

Indeed. The biggest limiting factor being the elevator cores. Once you pour a concrete elevator core, you may as well do the whole thing in concrete.

 

[interchange42]

From a physical infrastructure point of view, a mid rise building and a high rise building typically share many of the same costs. For instance, you will require elevators regardless if the building is 11 storeys or 30 storeys. (The 30 storey building may require more elevators, but the elevator core is being built regardless)

From an amenities perspective, a concierge in your building lobby or a swimming pool costs the same whether it is in a mid rise building or a high rise buildings.

The difference between a mid rise and a high rise, is that you can divide the (typically similar) costs of infrastructure and amenities between 500 units or 100 units.

It's not that simple: smaller buildings have fewer amenities to cover. A 500-unit building will have to dedicate 5 times more space, both inside and out, to amenities, than a 100-unit building will (assuming similar average suite sizes). It's the big buildings (or luxury ones) that will get the pools, whereas the smaller ones will typically forgo them owing to the relatively high expense of maintaining a pool. A 100-unit building is likely to have 2 elevators, whereas a 500-unit building will typically have 5, so there is some per-unit savings there for the larger building.

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[West End Boy]

Update last week from the developer on the re-submission....

https://bloordufferin.com/development-plan-update-for-bloor-dufferin/

 

[ADRM]

Update last week from the developer on the re-submission....

https://bloordufferin.com/development-plan-update-for-bloor-dufferin/

The first major change to the project modifies our vision for Bloor Street. We heard from members of the community that the existing Bloor Collegiate character was important, so we began a process to incorporate the façades of the Bloor Collegiate Institute (BCI) Building, including the Eaton embroidery factory addition, into the plans. The Eaton embroidery building façade would move to the west, connecting to the retained BCI facade, and south, giving way for a more substantial and safer sidewalk and public realm. Both the Bloor façade and the eastern façade of the Eaton building would be retained connecting this preservation into our existing High Street plan. The BCI façade would remain in place leaving a considerable setback from the sidewalk that could be used as patio space for a future retailer. This will not only add to Bloordale’s great retail offering, but do it in a way that celebrates the site’s history. The experience walking down Bloor will be a familiar one, improved with great retail and active uses spilling out into the public realm, as well as a more fine grained architectural experience above helping to break up the block and provide a visual stimulus as you make your way down the street.

New Rendering of Bloor Street incorporating existing BCI and Eaton buildings

EDIT: also:

Next, walk inside the atrium, grab a coffee, and take the escalator down to the newly proposed subway tunnel right into Dufferin Station. The project will truly be connected to the entire City. This new addition to the project is one that we are very excited to announce, and we look forward to continuing to work with the TTC to make this busy station more user friendly and accessible.

 

[Northern Light]

The first major change to the project modifies our vision for Bloor Street. We heard from members of the community that the existing Bloor Collegiate character was important, so we began a process to incorporate the façades of the Bloor Collegiate Institute (BCI) Building, including the Eaton embroidery factory addition, into the plans. The Eaton embroidery building façade would move to the west, connecting to the retained BCI facade, and south, giving way for a more substantial and safer sidewalk and public realm. Both the Bloor façade and the eastern façade of the Eaton building would be retained connecting this preservation into our existing High Street plan. The BCI façade would remain in place leaving a considerable setback from the sidewalk that could be used as patio space for a future retailer. This will not only add to Bloordale’s great retail offering, but do it in a way that celebrates the site’s history. The experience walking down Bloor will be a familiar one, improved with great retail and active uses spilling out into the public realm, as well as a more fine grained architectural experience above helping to break up the block and provide a visual stimulus as you make your way down the street.


View attachment 182633
New Rendering of Bloor Street incorporating existing BCI and Eaton buildings

Not the world's; or Toronto's most impressive facade, but still nice in terms of adding a layer of texture; some history and variety to the plan.

Nice to see a developer carefully listen to the public input and improve on their proposal.

Westbank made a big effort in this regard, but it's still not something we see enough of; very encouraging though to see more of it.

 

[Northern Light]

Some other nice improvements here:

"Walk along Bloor or up Dufferin to the atrium (Privately Owned Publicly Accessible Space) at the corner of Bloor and Dufferin, and you’ll notice more changes. To start, our building setbacks have increased along Dufferin, making the visibility to the Kent School building more open, further improving how we intend to celebrate heritage on this site. Next, walk inside the atrium, grab a coffee, and take the escalator down to the newly proposed subway tunnel right into Dufferin Station. The project will truly be connected to the entire City. This new addition to the project is one that we are very excited to announce, and we look forward to continuing to work with the TTC to make this busy station more user friendly and accessible. "

Also

Another great addition to the project is the newly proposed urban farming areas on the rooftop of the Kent School Building. This will feature both indoor and outdoor urban farming areas connected to a rooftop restaurant with panoramic views of the Toronto skyline.

This urban farming initiative serves a number of purposes. For one, this site has a long history of promoting food security with its past tenants. This is an initiative we strongly support and want to continue. We also think this use could add a level of community or educational programming to support and enhance the potential programming that will be delivered within the community hub and the new high school (to be built by the TDSB on the current Brockton High School lands). Finally, the idea of seasonal and locally grown produce is something that can enhance sustainability on the site, providing unique opportunities for on-site and nearby restaurants.

And

We’ve also responded to the comments regarding height of the proposed towers. This submission includes the lowering of our highest tower further from 44 storeys in our second submission to 37 in this one. We’ve made further reductions to a number of the other buildings on the site for an additional 58,000 square foot reduction in gross floor area compared to the previous submission, and over 118,000 square feet from the first submission in September 2017.

 

[Marcanadian]

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[interchange42]

The rooftop of Building A will get more sun than the top of the Kent School, which looks surrounded, other than for the first few morning hours. Put the urban farm up there!

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