Toronto Bathurst College Centre | ?m | 4s | RioCan | Turner Fleischer

I understand why you would be worried about Honest Ed's because Walmart is a cheaper, newer version of the business model. What I don't understand is why anyone think's it's appropriate to save one business operating for profit from another - essentially choosing winners by policy. Save the iconic facade at the corner by placing heritage status on it while it is re-purposed for another use but anything more is overreach in my opinion.
 
I understand why you would be worried about Honest Ed's because Walmart is a cheaper, newer version of the business model. What I don't understand is why anyone think's it's appropriate to save one business operating for profit from another - essentially choosing winners by policy. Save the iconic facade at the corner by placing heritage status on it while it is re-purposed for another use but anything more is overreach in my opinion.

Speaking economically, it makes no sense to favour Ed's over Wal-Mart. But speaking personally, Ed's just adds a lot more history and character to the neighbourhood. That's not really something I can put a price on.
 
The Wal-Mart effect has become a well-known phenomenon in contemporary North Americana. It's presence is often devastating for local entrepreneurial potential of businesses in the vicinity. The fact that they carry variety of groceries, supplies, clothing, household goods etc. will greatly impact the independent shops in KM. The rumoured Loblaws to open up at Tribute Home's College condos is already causing a stir with small grocers and fruit stands in the area. Compounding the matter with the most dominant big-box store in the world will be the final nail in the coffin. These fruit, spices, fish, butcher shops are the foundation of the market and as they diminish, the rest of the neighbourhood will have a hollowing out effect as trendy retailers will no longer find the area attractive for their niche.
 
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The Wal-Mart effect has become a well-known phenomenon in contemporary North Americana. It's presence is often devastating for local entrepreneurial potential of businesses in the vicinity. The fact that they carry variety of groceries, supplies, clothing, household goods etc. will greatly impact the independent shops in KM. The rumoured Loblaws to open up at Tribute Home's College condos is already causing a stir with small grocers and fruit stands in the area. Compounding the matter with the most dominant big-box store in the world will be the final nail in the coffin. These fruit, spices, fish, butchers are the foundation of the market and as they diminish, the rest of the neighbourhood will have a hollowing out effect as trendy retailers will no longer find the area attractive for their niche.

What about the silent majority that would like a loblaws or walmart in their neighbourhood to shop at? An area mind you that is currently under served by grocery stores. I know it because I live there... A loblaws would be a great addition since I cringe every time I need to go to the 24hr Metro on Bloor. And this is coming from someone who also shops at Sanagans and other stores in Kensington.

You can't stop change. Kensington has changed itself over the decades, and it will continue to do so as it responds to its customers and its environment.
 
Of course people have a right to make shopping decisions, whether influenced by their wallet, preference, or convenience. Though equally as important is the direction that specific downtown areas are heading towards. One of the best qualities of downtown living is having areas that offer a variety of unique retail experiences. Having suburban power centre giants at the doorstep doesn't quite have the same effect. There's a reason why New Yorkers have been fighting Wal-Mart for decades now.

A series of standalone big-box stores really doesn't do much to integrate or enhance itself into the neighbourhood fabric. Overall Rio Can's vision appears rather one dimensional and isolating. IMO, a better solution would have been a set of mid-rise mix-use buildings that contributes added density along with a variety of retail/community space opportunities.
 
Of course people have a right to make shopping decisions, whether influenced by their wallet, preference, or convenience. Though equally as important is the direction that specific downtown areas are heading towards. One of the best qualities of downtown living is having areas that offer a variety of unique retail experiences. Having suburban power centre giants at the doorstep doesn't quite have the same effect. There's a reason why New Yorkers have been fighting Wal-Mart for decades now.

A series of standalone big-box stores really doesn't do much to integrate or enhance itself into the neighbourhood fabric. Overall Rio Can's vision appears rather one dimensional and isolating. IMO, a better solution would have been a set of mid-rise mix-use buildings that contributes added density along with a variety of retail/community space opportunities.

The WalMart effect is actually more about Wal Mart's supply side strong-arming. If you look at its impact on downtown retailers in the US it impacted local hardware stores etc... stores that were unable to price-match or convenience match Wal Mart's sku's.

Kensington's retail, which has become dominated by up-market stores like Good Egg, vintage clothing stores, and organic grocery co-ops don't compete with Wal Mart at all. They don't sell the same products.
 
The WalMart effect is actually more about Wal Mart's supply side strong-arming. If you look at its impact on downtown retailers in the US it impacted local hardware stores etc... stores that were unable to price-match or convenience match Wal Mart's sku's.

Kensington's retail, which has become dominated by up-market stores like Good Egg, vintage clothing stores, and organic grocery co-ops don't compete with Wal Mart at all. They don't sell the same products.

Then again, Walmart has been branching out into areas like groceries. Overall, I'd prefer if Walmart stays out in the suburbs.
 
It's more than just feasibility and direct/indirect competition. The gentrification effect also impacts businesses in the area. Interesting independent retailers don't want to remain in an area with a sterilizing presence. Timmies, shoppers, and starbucks were enough to chase the creative class out of queen & ossington. Just imagine the damage walmart will do to this neighbourhood.
 
Walmart shouldn't exist at all, let alone in an area where it will undermine countless nearby independent stores. Walmart cheapness comes from horribly exploitative labour—not only of the sweatshops across the world that make their products, but of the assiduous obstruction of their own employees' unionization, in light of their terrible wages—and they should be driven off the planet, let alone prevented from going in next to Kensington. Why is RioCan such an insidious promotor of Walmart? Can't they profit off of less destructive urban forms, like some rental apartments with small stores underneath? Is Walmart their only option? Such an obnoxious proposal it's ridiculous.
 
I was down to Bentonville (Wal Mart HQ) a few months ago and the head office is a desperate and mean spirited as the retail outlets. Row after row of tiny cramped cubicles, conference rooms with all the joy of an interrogation room, scraped tables, mis matched chairs and the same soul destroying blue grey in every building. There are the sad consultants hired from around the world (because no one actually wants to live in Bentonville) and a couple of senior associates who sadly parrot the kool-aid lines.

This is a miserable, despicable company run by the Walton overlords who collectively are among the wealthiest families in the world. This is not Ikea of simple efficiency or Target that tries or even Costco that treats their employees reasonably.

We should do anything and everything to keep this store out of the core. Just check out San Antonio or Dallas some day and see what giving up on your urban culture looks like. Every niche filled with a franchise, like something out of Snow Crash.

This should be fought with everything we can.
 
Walmart shouldn't exist at all, let alone in an area where it will undermine countless nearby independent stores. Walmart cheapness comes from horribly exploitative labour—not only of the sweatshops across the world that make their products, but of the assiduous obstruction of their own employees' unionization, in light of their terrible wages—and they should be driven off the planet, let alone prevented from going in next to Kensington. Why is RioCan such an insidious promotor of Walmart? Can't they profit off of less destructive urban forms, like some rental apartments with small stores underneath? Is Walmart their only option? Such an obnoxious proposal it's ridiculous.

There are a couple of major issues, in my opinion around this proposal, and which have been loosely addressed in the discussion. These are independent questions and can't simply be looped together because of an irrational hatred of big box retail and or wal mart.

1) Will WalMart destroy kensington market? I would argue that this thought train is ludicrous. Even if Wal Mart has gone down the value chain into fresh produce - the type of produce t
Again - Kensington is now known for: used furniture, vintage clothes, organic groceries and unique restaurants. I suspect the clientele would be completely different. One doesn't go to Kensington to pick up a two-four of toilet paper.
2) Do we want big box retail downtown?
I don't understand the fear of big box retail downtown? New York has chased out Wal Mart for arcane reasons, yet - New York is happy to welcome a 300,000 square foot Nordstrom. Besides price-point - what's the difference? Both are large, corporate retail establishments that can easily control supply of product to squash local businesses. New York has HUGE department stores and yet independent retail thrives? My concern with a lot of animosity to Wal Mart is an almost classist reaction. Wal Mart is for poor people who buy their cheap crap. We don't want Wal Mart downtown.
3) Is this proposal, as designed, urban? Does it meet the street in an urban way?
We haven't seen the latest design so who really knows? I think what RioCan did on Queen Street to be a fairly decent and urbane structure. THe condo tower is ugly as f-cuk, but the retail structure meets the street in a fairly successful way. Its created a space for large format retail while staying true to Queen Street's smaller format street level retail format. If anyone
As Toronto grows - and ads population downtown - the fact that Wal mart wants to invest in our city is a sign of growth and dynamism. Chasing out a chain store simply because we don't want a chain store and want to protect local businesses does not make a successful city. The stretch of Bathurst that RioCan has proposed to build on... is to be totally frank, a wasteland. I welcome retail development on a central artery that is well serviced by a streetcar. Again - if you remove the chicken little Wal Mart will ruin Kensington argument (debunked above) and the proposal meets the street - I can't see why anyone would hate this proposal? In fact - it could support the market, by keeping large format retail on major arteries and letting smaller format retail maintain a presence in the market.

Which brings us to the last question:
4) Is Wal Mart a shitty company with horrible labour practices that deserves to be run off the earth?
I mean really... this is a loaded question that, in my mind, has no baring to our opinion of supporting large-format retail to establish stores in downtown Toronto.

As Toronto grows up it needs large format retail to survive and feed its population. This proposal, may not be perfect, but it is an attempt by a corporation to invest and meet the needs of our growing downtown population.

For Toronto to continue to grow - it needs to grow up. BOth literally and figuratively.
 
More important questions:

Is Wal-Mart creating the type of jobs we want to create?

Will Wal-Mart's earnings stay within the greater community?

Can the advantages of Wal-Mart be met without authorising its precense right downtown?

Is the way in which Wal-Mart conducts itself 'fair' to potential competitors in the area?

If you examine these questions you will not fail to conclude that Wal-Mart should be kept as far away from our fair city as possible. There are no net advantages to saying yes to this, and plenty of disadvantages.

Also, how bloody hypocritical is it for Rio Can to oppose a downtown casino and then try and bring a Wal-Mart here?
 
More important questions:

Is Wal-Mart creating the type of jobs we want to create?
- how is WalMart any different from Loblaws? Maison Simons? Starbucks?

Will Wal-Mart's earnings stay within the greater community?
- IBID

Can the advantages of Wal-Mart be met without authorising its precense right downtown?
- I'm not sure I understand the question

Is the way in which Wal-Mart conducts itself 'fair' to potential competitors in the area?
- Again - I would argue that WalMart has very few direct competitors in the area

If you examine these questions you will not fail to conclude that Wal-Mart should be kept as far away from our fair city as possible. There are no net advantages to saying yes to this, and plenty of disadvantages.

Also, how bloody hypocritical is it for Rio Can to oppose a downtown casino and then try and bring a Wal-Mart here?
- please articulate how gambling has anything to do cheap toilet paper?
 
On another note, I'm surprised that the RioCan owned site will host a Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart has traditionally stuck with DumbCentres, and could quite possibly still be part of the Cinescape lands develpment on Eastern Avenue.
 

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