Toronto 5800 Yonge | 173.23m | 54s | Times Group | Wallman Architects

[PMT]

From CoStar:

Exclusive: Times Group Pays $122 Million for Yonge St. Redevelopment Site

[...]

CoStar News can report that Times 5800 Inc., an affiliate of Times Group, bought the development site at 5800 Yonge St. from Toronto-Hydro Electric System Ltd., in a deal tied to the 1.25 million square feet of potential density.

[...]

Street View:

 

[Marcanadian]

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

The timing of the demo is unfortunately too early.

While this developer acquired the land from City and thus already have good idea of exactly what they’re allowed to build her (3 condo tower about 30-storey, 1 rental tower, commercial base with retirement home component); the development application still have not yet been formally submitted. Probably another 6 months away. Then add another 1 year for the development application to be approved (if Developer propose exactly what City is fine with which is usually the case when City sells Developer city land). But if Developer stray or City oppose, then OMB add at least another year, add even more if one of the local ratepayers groups attempt to stall (as was done across the street at Newtonbrook Plaza redevelopment).

Thus, they won’t be starting digging here for at least 2.5 years or more,.... so why demolish good office space now? Especially since we’re already loosing the 11-storey office building across Yonge Street at Newtonbrook Plaza for redevelopment - demolition end of year or early next year - many tenants already moved out and looking for new places nearby.

 

[ErieHall]

How many tenants would be willing to lease office space knowing they'll have to move again when their current lease ends in about a year or two?

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

How many tenants would be willing to lease office space knowing they'll have to move again when their current lease ends in about a year or two?

Just look across Yonge Street at NewtonBrook Plaza Redevelopment into similar scope 5 tower residential; that already took 10 years to get to this point,... and shovels still isn’t in the ground yet,... for construction or demolition! One of the reason is stall tactics from a local ratepayers group.

 

[drum118]

By tearing the building down now, you will only have to pay property tax on vacant land compare to having an empty or in use building that has to pay more.

There is a cost to redo that building for short term lease and is it worth it to do it or not, knowing it going to take years before shovels are in the ground??

When I was following the Palm years ago, this site was calling to be redevelop like it is today.

It and every development site between Finch and Steeles is only going to overload the Yonge line more. Great for taxes, but at what cost to transit?

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

IIRC that building was used to distribute volunteer gear for the Pan Am Games, back in spring 2015. Don't know what other uses it's had since.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Locally, the 11-storey office building being demolished across Yonge Street for Newtonbrook Plaza redevelopment will be the first office building demolished within the North York Centre Secondary Plan Area (Yonge corridor in North York); this one (former Toronto (North York) Hydro building) will likely be the second,.... decreasing the area’s stock of office space,... when the area is already loosing about 500-700 local jobs per year while gaining 2,000 new residents per year,... thus, becoming more and more of a sleeping community,.... actually, vertical sleeping community,... with more and more gridlock traffic and transit congestion as people must commute out of the area for work! This is not good urban planning!

 

[drum118]

Locally, the 11-storey office building being demolished across Yonge Street for Newtonbrook Plaza redevelopment will be the first office building demolished within the North York Centre Secondary Plan Area (Yonge corridor in North York); this one (former Toronto (North York) Hydro building) will likely be the second,.... decreasing the area’s stock of office space,... when the area is already loosing about 500-700 local jobs per year while gaining 2,000 new residents per year,... thus, becoming more and more of a sleeping community,.... actually, vertical sleeping community,... with more and more gridlock traffic and transit congestion as people must commute out of the area for work! This is not good urban planning!

The city can say this land is for offices, but if no one shows up to to lease/buy that land and build the office tower, what good is that vacant land going to do for the area??

One only has to look at the master plans from the 70s-90s for NYC, STC, York Centre to see the current areas are no way near to what was call for or have the populations for it. Then who would have thought office towers would be built south of Front like they are today only 10-15 years ago?? I know from working on various master plans for the Waterfront, there was a visions for various 10-15 story buildings, but not even close to what being built there now. Even residential is 4 times plus more now for what is plan.

One can't force companies to build at X spot since those companies are looking as to where it would be in their interest to meet their needs as well their employees these days.

In the past it was industrial in this area, commercial in this area, retail in this area, Playing in this area and residential in this area, requiring people to have a car to get around. Today it has to be having everything in one area to cut down on the need to drive and have more time with their family. Doesn't work in all areas.

Its the same thing for retail as you can only have so many of X before there isn't the support to keep them a float. One only has to look at Boston who is saying they have too many restaurants and not enough diners to keep them a float.

 

[Edward Skira]

Here's my take. We just moved UrbanToronto's office to NYCC. It wasn't easy finding space. We needed less than 1000 sq ft and there's not much space for that size. There was much larger spaces in some of the premium buildings but we didn't need that much space and (assuming they would subdivide - which they wouldn't) it was quite expensive compared to what we paid downtown. There's not a lot of older space for small companies like ours. Having the building at Newtonbrook torn down (which would have fit our needs perfectly) isn't helping the situation. There was some space at Hallmark and Emerald but they are condo units. I had no budget (and no interest frankly) in buying a unit. And, if we were to rent them, the owners expected us to build out the spaces (which were just concrete shells). Not realistic on our budget so they remain empty. Ideally all the condo developments facing Yonge would be required to provide a few floors of office space that could be divided into small units. Even for medical offices and the like.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Here's my take. We just moved UrbanToronto's office to NYCC. It wasn't easy finding space. We needed less than 1000 sq ft and there's not much space for that size. There was much larger spaces in some of the premium buildings but we didn't need that much space and (assuming they would subdivide - which they wouldn't) it was quite expensive compared to what we paid downtown. There's not a lot of older space for small companies like ours. Having the building at Newtonbrook torn down (which would have fit our needs perfectly) isn't helping the situation. There was some space at Hallmark and Emerald but they are condo units. I had no budget (and no interest frankly) in buying a unit. And, if we were to rent them, the owners expected us to build out the spaces (which were just concrete shells). Not realistic on our budget so they remain empty. Ideally all the condo developments facing Yonge would be required to provide a few floors of office space that could be divided into small units. Even for medical offices and the like.

Sounds like there's a market for smaller, shorter-term, budget office space. For like, startups and stuff.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

The city can say this land is for offices, but if no one shows up to to lease/buy that land and build the office tower, what good is that vacant land going to do for the area??

One only has to look at the master plans from the 70s-90s for NYC, STC, York Centre to see the current areas are no way near to what was call for or have the populations for it. Then who would have thought office towers would be built south of Front like they are today only 10-15 years ago?? I know from working on various master plans for the Waterfront, there was a visions for various 10-15 story buildings, but not even close to what being built there now. Even residential is 4 times plus more now for what is plan.

One can't force companies to build at X spot since those companies are looking as to where it would be in their interest to meet their needs as well their employees these days.

In the past it was industrial in this area, commercial in this area, retail in this area, Playing in this area and residential in this area, requiring people to have a car to get around. Today it has to be having everything in one area to cut down on the need to drive and have more time with their family. Doesn't work in all areas.

Its the same thing for retail as you can only have so many of X before there isn't the support to keep them a float. One only has to look at Boston who is saying they have too many restaurants and not enough diners to keep them a float.

The problem is,... if City let all the potential prime office land host residential condo,... where will the office buildings go when and if the office market recovers? Your harbourfront/south core example shows how land use (residential/office) and density can change within 10-15 years.

Within North York Centre Secondary Plan area (Yonge corridor 401 to Drewry/Cummer):
- city owned land at 4804-4812 Yonge (northwest corner Yonge & Sheppard) now host temporary structure with 15 year outlook with McDonald’s, TacoBell and former 7-11. City wants office here, but currently no market,.. so after 15 years (about 10 more), City will review to see if office market recovers enough for office development on this site.
- 5015 Yonge - new 2-storey Keg restaurant - is an example of where private owners build temporary structure (maybe 15-20 year timeline) for now. While 100m condo directly east, 100m office directly south on Yonge; so City would have put up strong fight if condo were proposed for this site.
- 4800 Yonge (southwest corner Yonge&Sheppard) - Menkes proposing 50 storey residential condo; City oppose & wants office here - going to OMB
- GibsonSquare is similar to above,... where Menkes proposed twin 42-storey condo towers on office land, went to OMB, Menkes won - but it was a long fight.


At this site, 5800 Yonge, currently zoned office and parking - no residential zoning on-site. The residential zoning changes proposed to allow 3 condo tower and 1 rental tower is where the local ratepayers group would fight since that’ll decrease the quality of life for their residents (more traffic/transit congestion, less school capacity, less sewage capacity, etc,...). For the local ratepayers groups, it’s not just stalling the inevitable,... it’s buying more time for their residents,... and getting better Section37 Community Benefit! Look across Yonge Street at Newtonbrook Plaza redevelopment after stalling for 10 years to this point, not only did the local ratepayers group get a new park,... but also a new community centre - from a 5 tower development! Note: Concord Park Place is building a new park and community Centre but that’s for a 23+ tower development.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Buying this land from Toronto Hydro (BuildToronto, City of Toronto) part of the Term of Sales specifies Times Group (developer) work with City Planning prior to completion of sale to design within North York Centre Secondary Plan (NYCSPA) specs for this site of 102m height limit (generally 100m in NYCSPA) and 3.6FSI density (generally allowed 4.5FSI in NYCSPA), here look like they included some of the Park Land contribution to get density down to 3.6FSI.

Preliminary agreement between City Planning and Times Group as per Term of Sales are summarized in these rough design:
Lot divided into 3 segments:

• western segment to become Parkland
• new Beecroft Road north extension
• Within Condo segment; western half has two 29-storey condo with 2 & 8-storey podium, eastern half on Yonge St has 29-storey & 31-storey condo with 5-storey podium

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2018/mm/comm/communicationfile-78397.pdf

Note: Above models shows Plaza's original 5840 Yonge at 29-storey to north at Yonge which got rotated & became 32-storey. Above model also shows to the north at Beecroft extension, Yolanda Flanders / Conservatory Group's phantom Ruby Condo at 32-storey from 4 years ago (never officially submitted). Above model also shows Aoyuan's NewtonBrook plaza redevelopment across Yonge Street built out, which needs this project's "New Green Street" to access Beecroft Road as part of North York Centre Service Road system (development can't empty cars directly onto Yonge St)
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...2s-plaza-quadrangle.25011/page-2#post-1276741
https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...ry-23s-e-i-richmond.11339/page-2#post-1277662


Throughout North York Centre Secondary Plan Area, developer can go over 100m height limit and 4.5FSI density limit (up to 6.0FSI max) by paying a higher rate for Section 37 Community Benefit payments; as was done at Tridel Hullmark Centre (168m 6.0FSI) & Bazis Emerald Park (140m 5.6FSI). Note: Menkes' GibsonSquare got their height & density via OMB. Interestingly, it appears any such attempt by Times Group to go over the agreed upon height & density would violate Term of Sales with City.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Strange,.....

TimesGroup seek permission to demolish the existing 2-storey former North York Hydro building on July 31, 2018

5800 Yonge | 173.23m | 54s | Times Group | Wallman Architects

From CoStar: Exclusive: Times Group Pays $122 Million for Yonge St. Redevelopment Site [...] CoStar News can report that Times 5800 Inc., an affiliate of Times Group, bought the development site at 5800 Yonge St. from Toronto-Hydro Electric System Ltd., in a deal tied to the 1.25 million...

urbantoronto.ca

But on November 7, 2018, TimesGroup seek permission to set up Emergency Homeless/Refugee Shelter here:

"LEVY: Yonge St. building to house refugee overflow?" - "City shelter officials have squirreled away $3-million in the 2019 budget for a north Toronto building to house refugees, the Toronto Sun has learned.",.... "According to reports, that 8.1-acre site — situated north of Finch Ave. — was the former North York hydro building and was sold to a Markham-based condo developer last April.",... "Shelter, support and housing spokesman Greg Seraganian says the owner of the property approached the city to assist with its refugee response and is being held as a “contingency space.”"

LEVY: Yonge St. building to house refugee overflow?

City shelter officials have squirreled away $3-million in the 2019 budget for a north Toronto building to house refugees,

torontosun.com

Wow, that's very generous of TimesGroup,... but why?

The BuildToronto Terms of Sales Agreement for this NorthYork/Toronto Hydro Land to Times Group states and quantify what redevelopment can occur - which must be within the current allowable development zoining limitations (density, height, usage within North York Center Secondary Plan) for this land,... but immediately after the sale TimeGroup stated they'll try to get more,... "Times Group declined to discuss the deal when contacted, but in published reports, president Hashem Ghadaki said, “We are going to talk to the city about the density and what we can do,” and discussed plans to put three 30-storey towers on the site."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rea...ut-for-toronto-hydro-sale-of-north-york-site/
https://product.costar.com/home/news/shared/190129
Note: City already allowing: 3 condo tower + 1 rental tower + 3-storey mall with 5-storey office and retirement home on top

Since TimesGroup is now playing games,.... Redevelopment here may take longer than expected as both City, TimesGroup & TorontoHydro has incentives to drag this out now:

• incentives for TimesGroup is getting more density which translate to more profit
• incentive for City is not just sticking to North York Centre Secondary Plan (agreed Terms of Sales) but now a longer band-aid solution to Refugee-Homeless Shelter space
• incentive for TorontoHydro is provision in Terms of Sale that more density means more cash back to TorontoHydro

At the end of the day,... this temporary Refugee-Homeless Shelter will seem more permanent as the years go by (across the street - Newtonbrook redevelopment into a similar scale 5 tower redevelopment took over 10 years to get to its current demolition stage),...

Times Group using 2 strategies here,... kiss up to City to get more density than already agreed to in Terms of Sales Agreement,.... and piss-off locals so the new redevelopment looks good - the longer this becomes a Refugee-Homeless Shelter, the more desperate the local community will be to get rid of it - and the increased density & height becomes less of an issue!

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

City will announce tomorrow morning - this 5800 Yonge site to be "activated" as Refugee-Homeless Shelter

LEVY: North York refugee shelter to be 'activated'

LEVY: North York refugee shelter to be 'activated'

City officials are expected to announce plans Wednesday to “activate” a site in north Toronto to transition refugees now staying in GTA hotels and motels, the

torontosun.com

BTW, I've seen photo of interior - looks like camp-dormitory - large rooms with multiple single/twin beds all lined up - I didn't see any bunk beds. White light coloured walls with blue trim - white false ceilings

BTW,... City of Toronto entered into Lease for 5800 Yonge from October 1, 2018 to September 30, 2020 with basic rent of about $42,183 per month (committed $1,012,392 for 2 year term)

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/983d-2018-331_5800-Yonge-St.pdf