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Toronto 2024 Olympic Bid (Dead)

Ok so for those of you who believe the Olympics are so bad in every way... what on earth does NYC stand to gain in hosting the games? Why did London want to host the games?? Let's hear the conspiracy theories. I do so enjoy a good one!
 
Ok so for those of you who believe the Olympics are so bad in every way... what on earth does NYC stand to gain in hosting the games? Why did London want to host the games?? Let's hear the conspiracy theories. I do so enjoy a good one!

Who cares why someone else wants to flush their tax dollars? Best news in this thread so far is the idea we might not have to worry about y'all even coming up with a bid.
 
Having spent the last 3 weeks in Asia I wanted to comment on the coverage there as it relates to this topic. Basically, their coverage is almost entirely home-country sport related. The host city itself and sports outside of say fighting, shooting, racket sports, and aquatic events are essentially irrelevent. This is not a criticism of their coverage, but it is an argument that the promotional impact of hosting the games to the host city is much less effective than some here would like to believe.

In a way this make me more interested in Toronto hosting smaller sporting events and avoiding the olympics itself. With something like the Pan Am games you get the upgraded facilities that can provide venues for local athletics and the potential of getting on the annual event circuits that generate regular annual benefits. At the same time you avoid the horrendous security, spectacle and interuption costs for local businesses caused by the Olympics itself, which as I mentioned probably have much less promotional value than organizers suggest.
 
^ NBC pretty much does that as well, by focusing primarily on events where there are strong American competitors who have a good shot at making the podium.
 
I was just reading FutureMayor's posts on the "Toronto 2008 Olympics: A city that might have been" and I've begun mourning our loss all over again.

This particular tidbit makes me want to openly weep:

The biggest surprise announcement came in Toronto's final presentation in Moscow. They presented plans for Toronto's very own Frank Ghery to design and build a new World Youth Centre at the foot of Yonge Street (Pier 27 now). It would have been Toronto's calling card to the world as a new iconic structure on the waterfront.

I really want to believe that the PanAm Games will bring just a fraction of the benefits we would have received from hosting the Olympics but the worldwide games bring with them much more than athletics facilities, they truly build cities.

In this Rob Ford era of civic pessimism and negativity lacking in any ambition whatsoever, Toronto really really really... Really needs this. We need Torontonians to dream big again. I can't think of a better way to bring us all together in pride and love for Toronto, than an Olympic Games.
 
No, I'm not. You read what you want to read. Not supporting heath and fitness and having no pride with our nation's athletics is something that is un-Canadian.

And apparently we do need a big event to get anything done in this city considering we have such laughably pathetic facilities.

Who says our facilities are "laughably pathetic"? Aren't we getting a bunch of new ones with the PanAm games anyway? Plus, don't most Olympic-level athletes train wherever the best coaches are?

And if hosting the Olympics is so important to supporting athletes, how do you account for the superb athletes from countries that have never hosted the games? Clearly there is no connection between the two.

Finally, appealing to national pride is intellectually very weak. Especially about sports, for crying out loud. Yes, it's nice that a few hundred Canadians made it the Olympics. That in itself is a huge achievement. But quite frankly, as a nation, we have bigger fish to fry. And really, the nation has very little to do with Canadian athletes' performance, beyond whatever tax dollars were spent on programs, etc. They are no more "our" athletes than Paul Bernardo and Robert Pickton are "our" serial killers.
 
Actually, I've raised the issue here recently. Whether Toronto is ready or not vs whether we should even want to or not are two different questions. On the first issue I've raised doubts in terms of 2024, on the second issue I'm fairly ambivalent, though I've made it clear it could be the right thing to do if we can leverage the right things out of it (despite some of the more valid of the negative points you've raised). Griping about equestrian events and the like is over-reaching in your argument and not convincing anybody. There is a bigger picture to consider clearly, and many nations/cities do so for various reasons. Again, i'd like to see a plan first and what it would achieve before dismissing it outright. Your closed mind on this undermines some of the good arguments you make.



Architect, JN12, Nfitz and I don't really have to do better because it is one of the fundamental flaws in your argument, a contradiction at best and a hypocrisy at worst. It goes back to the start of the thread and the start of the case you tried to build which I knocked down handily by showing how you compare to Rob Ford in his wanting to stop funding to Pride, counting the pennies you'd save but overlooking the massive benefits you'd forgo. We've made the analogies of TIFF and Luminato too. The only real difference with the Olympic games is one of size and scale and the fact that they are sports-orientated vs arts-orientated, none of which upsets the analogy or boosts your point. Your claims about the evil IOC, the wasted money on facilities not needed, the disruption to locals during the games are all flimsy arguments against the games, whether spreading questionable conspiracy theories or cherry-picking the worst possible outcomes of the worst games you do not allow for the fact that for many cities the net results are positive.

What, wait? You don't think Toronto is "ready" to host the Olympics, and you're not sure if it would be good for the city, and in March you actually said "No!" to the idea, but you oppose... what? My posting arguments and links that oppose a Toronto bid? You're this riled up over someone simply having a strong opinion on the matter in contrast with your tepid one? That's it?

How do you cope in a world where many people will disagree with you on many issues? I don't know if you know this, but every election there are a ton of people who vote differently than you. You might as well prepare yourself emotionally: if a Toronto bid goes ahead, there will be MANY debates about it, MANY people will oppose it, and they will say many of the same things as I have.

As for the highlighted part of your quote: You list many of the topics that I've covered and then in the same quote accuse me of not seeing the bigger picture. Uh, $15-20 billion is not the big picture? Sweeping away whole neighbourhoods is not the big picture? You accuse me of cherry-picking while cherry-picking yourself what information to consider, e.g. you ignore that my comments are based on studies by academics and economists, and reports from communities with direct experience of the games. You must admit that all of those people know a lot more about the Olympics than you do. (And I notice you haven't provided any evidence to support your claim that "for many cities the net results are positive". Where are you getting that from? The same media that profit from the games?)

I never compared Rob Ford not wanting to fund Pride, I never even mentioned Pride, so you couldn't have "knocked down handily" my argument about it. That makes no sense at all. And I see another poster has called you out for making false claims about their arguments. You aren't coming across here as a careful reader or thinker, and that doesn't help your case at all.
 
Please back away from the ad hominem, (stop discussing each other), and go back to discussing the bid. Thanks.

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W$15-20 billion is not the big picture? Sweeping away whole neighbourhoods is not the big picture?

Again, like Ford you count the costs and ignore the benefits, and that is not seeing the 'big picture'... and tell me just which neighbourhoods were swept away by the London games? Are you referring to the derelict brown fields of Stratford in london?
 
Again, like Ford you count the costs and ignore the benefits, and that is not seeing the 'big picture'... and tell me just which neighbourhoods were swept away by the London games? Are you referring to the derelict brown fields of Stratford in london?

For the 423rd time, the Olympics do not deliver on the promised benefits. That's why I don't take them into account. There is already enough material on this thread that supports that argument. We know that London 2012 didn't deliver the tourist dollars and by some accounts, tourist revenues were down from usual. Plus all the derelict Olympic sites scattered around the world, etc etc etc. Plus the studies that show that hosting the Olympics does not improve fitness in the general population. Examining the massive costs (economic, social and opportunity) and purported-but-unrealized benefits IS looking at the big picture.

Upthread I posted the link http://www.gamesmonitor.org.uk/ that has info on displacements in London. The guy who started it was kicked out of his home. Also see: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/02/olympics2012 Plus I linked to a study that goes back 20+ years that discusses the displacements in past Olympic host cities. It's something like 1-2 million people worldwide. Plus http://rioonwatch.org/ is covering the displacements happening in Rio right now.
 
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London usually has 63% of NYC's number of tourists, and according to that article during the Olympics that percentage had gone up to 79%. Isn't that an increase? And lower occupancy rates can be explained by a higher supply of beds and hotels during the Olympics. That wasn't explained in the article, and it's never explained in any article or study you have presented as "evidence".
 
London usually has 63% of NYC's number of tourists, and according to that article during the Olympics that percentage had gone up to 79%. Isn't that an increase? And lower occupancy rates can be explained by a higher supply of beds and hotels during the Olympics. That wasn't explained in the article, and it's never explained in any article or study you have presented as "evidence".

I don't have time just now to re-do the NYC study and verify the figures.

But your comment really piques my curiosity. I've posted links to A LOT of "evidence", including two whole books - both written by academics - and several articles based on academic research and many websites which themselves have a ton of research on them. So it's pretty amazing that you have read through ALL of that evidence and found flaws in ALL of it. Wow.

As for the NYC study, it was done by this guy:

Mitchell Moss, Director, Rudin Center for Transportation Policy and Management
Prior to his appointment as Director of the Rudin Center for Transportation Policy and Management, Mr. Moss was the Director of NYU's Taub Urban Research Center, where he directed research projects for the National Science Foundation, Charles Revson Foundation, U.S. Department of Commerce, New York State Economic Development Corporation, and leading private corporations. Professor Moss has been on the faculty of NYU since 1973.

I'm really surprised that he would make such a basic mistake, but good on you for catching it. I guess all those media reports about lower tourist numbers in London, including the links posted earlier on this thread, must have been wrong too.

Like this one:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ry-london-during-the-olympics/article4451677/
 
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