1233 Queen East | ?m | 8s

[gweed123]

The problem is that most of the shops/kiosks in the station are either a) convenience stores b)selling food and/or c) selling tourist items,and besides who would want to travel to X station to get a cinnabon unless the person is travelling there and wants it

That's the way it is now, but why does it have to stay that way? And you wouldn't have to build one at every station, but you know that in the AM rush hour, the busiest stations for exiting/transferring are Bloor-Yonge, St. George, King, Queen, Dundas, Osgoode, and St. Andrew. Set up shops at these stations that cater to the morning rush-hour crowd (coffee shops, etc), and then have the advertising geared towards these stations. In the PM rush hour, the biggest stations for existing are Kipling, Islington, Downsview, Finch, Kennedy, Don Mills, and STC. Have shops that cater to that crowd (ready-to-go dinners, etc), and have the advertising reflect that.

Most people would say that this would be an unwanted increase in advertising, and that it would be a nuisance. My view on it is: I'd much rather be bombarded by advertising that might actually be useful to me, than advertising I don't really care about (Viagra, Diet Pills, etc). Because let's face it, we're going to get bombarded either way.

 

[Asterix]

Most people would say that this would be an unwanted increase in advertising, and that it would be a nuisance. My view on it is: I'd much rather be bombarded by advertising that might actually be useful to me, than advertising I don't really care about (Viagra, Diet Pills, etc). Because let's face it, we're going to get bombarded either way.

So what would be your cut-off in your own cost-benefit analysis? How much advertising are you willing to endure and for what benefit?

Given that advertising revenues currently account for between $15 and $20 million per year out of a $1.4 billion budget, how much of an impact on keeping fares down, ensuring cleaner stations or even building new lines do you think a handful of kiosks selling ready-to-go dinners will provide?

Would you be willing to be aurally and visually assaulted throughout your entire TTC riding experience if it meant avoiding a 10 cent fare increase for one or two years? Would you think other riders would be so inclined?

No wrong answer, just a question of how much you and others will be willing to tolerate from advertising and for what perceived benefit.

 

[gweed123]

So what would be your cut-off in your own cost-benefit analysis? How much advertising are you willing to endure and for what benefit?

Given that advertising revenues currently account for between $15 and $20 million per year out of a $1.4 billion budget, how much of an impact on keeping fares down, ensuring cleaner stations or even building new lines do you think a handful of kiosks selling ready-to-go dinners will provide?

Would you be willing to be aurally and visually assaulted throughout your entire TTC riding experience if it meant avoiding a 10 cent fare increase for one or two years? Would you think other riders would be so inclined?

No wrong answer, just a question of how much you and others will be willing to tolerate from advertising and for what perceived benefit.

Personally, I'd rather stomach a 25 cent fare increase than have to be bombarded by advertisements. But because I know that will never happen, I'm just saying that I'd rather the advertising that I am bombarded with at least be of some use to me. I'd rather see that there's a Tim Horton's directly inside King Station than read the phone number of a 'great' injury lawyer.

 

[Asterix]

I'm just saying that I'd rather the advertising that I am bombarded with at least be of some use to me. I'd rather see that there's a Tim Horton's directly inside King Station than read the phone number of a 'great' injury lawyer.

But how much advertising are you willing to tolerate? Where would you personally draw the line and say "you know, I'd rather pay another 10 cents to ride the TTC next year than to have to deal with <something_beyond_your_personal_limit>"?

How many Tim Horton's inside stations, partnered with in-car video screens blasting Timmie's ads would it take to cover the revenue obtained by one single 10 cent fare hike in one year? How many complete subway train wraps and station wallpapering? Should they add flashing lights and audio to the ads since that will make them more valuable to advertisers?

 

[SlickFranky]

There was another thread about this a few month ago, and I think the actual number was somewhere around 2 cents per fare. Why we put up with so much garbage for that little return is beyond me. I'd be in full support of a metropass increase to pay for an ad-free TTC, and yes I'm a metropass user. Let the systems heaviest users (and the ones who would most benefit from the change) cover the cost.

 

[gweed123]

But how much advertising are you willing to tolerate? Where would you personally draw the line and say "you know, I'd rather pay another 10 cents to ride the TTC next year than to have to deal with <something_beyond_your_personal_limit>"?

How many Tim Horton's inside stations, partnered with in-car video screens blasting Timmie's ads would it take to cover the revenue obtained by one single 10 cent fare hike in one year? How many complete subway train wraps and station wallpapering? Should they add flashing lights and audio to the ads since that will make them more valuable to advertisers?

I would be willing to accept a small video screen above or near some of the doorways. I would imagine that these screens could actually be quite useful. Some of the time they're advertisements, some of the time they're promoting Toronto attractions (Casa Loma, the ROM, the Science Centre, etc), and whenever the TTC has an urgent message, they become a text screen for those who are hearing impaired (or those who just have their iPods on and can't hear the message).

Much beyond that though, and I wouldn't really support it.

 

[gweed123]

There was another thread about this a few month ago, and I think the actual number was somewhere around 2 cents per fare. Why we put up with so much garbage for that little return is beyond me. I'd be in full support of a metropass increase to pay for an ad-free TTC, and yes I'm a metropass user. Let the systems heaviest users (and the ones who would most benefit from the change) cover the cost.

Has the TTC or the city ever conducted a public opinion poll to see if the public would support a fare increase in order to have an ad-free TTC? That would certainly make an interesting election topic as well.

 

[nfitz]

Has the TTC or the city ever conducted a public opinion poll to see if the public would support a fare increase in order to have an ad-free TTC?

I don't understand the desire for it to be ad-free. There's been advertising on the TTC since it was created, as far as I know. I can't think of a city off-hand where there isn't advertising. And if your stood there with nothng to do, I'd rather have some ads to read, than blank walls to stare at.

Does anyone really care, except for some extreme left-wing communists?

 

[gweed123]

I don't understand the desire for it to be ad-free. There's been advertising on the TTC since it was created, as far as I know. I can't think of a city off-hand where there isn't advertising. And if your stood there with nothng to do, I'd rather have some ads to read, than blank walls to stare at.

Does anyone really care, except for some extreme left-wing communists?

Why have a blank wall when you can have community art? Or posters that showcase Toronto attractions?

 

[GraphicMatt]

The problem with killing advertising is that it would be seen as the TTC foregoing revenue. Even though the TTC makes very very little from its ads, the perception is that they bring in more than they do. It'd be challenging to change minds.

I do wonder if the TTC could make more money from advertising, though. How does the ad rate for a billboard in Dundas Square compare to the cost of a big ad in Dundas station? How do TTC ad revenues compare to other transit systems?

 

[golodhendil]

Lest I begin to sound like RF with his "lease the stations out" rhetoric, it really isn't completely outrageous to think increased advertising and retail (smartly) can contribute significantly to public transit revenue. To take HK's MTR as an example, in 2009 their ads and retail revenue amounted to $2.2 billion HKD (~$280 million CAD, with 3/4 of that from in-station retail), which was about 12% of their total revenue that year. Their in-station retail obviously isn't limited to their "Tim Hortons" equivalents (I suppose meaning "low-end" retail), but range from coffee shops, Chinese dessert shops and convenience stores, to bakeries, electronics stores and mid-high end cosmetics/fashion and accessories. "Flashing lights and audio", along with TV screens, interactive panels, projections onto walls and PSDs, etc (plus the run-of-the-mill ad panels and whole-station wrap-ups), are also pretty standard parts of the ad arsenal at MTR stations. Now, with HK being the ultra-capitalist society that it is and with a generally higher level of tolerance for ads and commerce in daily life (at least as forced upon the people by corporations) and the higher foot traffic, I am not saying that this model can be completely replicated in North America, so at the end I agree it's a matter of what Torontonians can tolerate (and the economics).

In terms of programming for the TVs, again to take the examples of companies in HK that are willing to make the necessary investments (and where the economics work), there could be anything from news to music shows to talk shows and documentaries. The TVs on MTR trains play programming from a partnered TV network, while the TVs on buses are run by a company that produce their own shows (with some purchased programming). Again, I see this as only remotely likely to happen in North America, but just to give a broader perspective.

 

[Asterix]

Has the TTC or the city ever conducted a public opinion poll to see if the public would support a fare increase in order to have an ad-free TTC? That would certainly make an interesting election topic as well.

But that gets back to my point - it isn't as big a deal as many seem to think it is. People seem to think that there are huge gobs of money to be made from advertising and that it could potentially solve all kinds of funding problems (from slashing fares to cleaning stations to building entire subway lines).

That simply isn't true as the TTC budget shows - $15 - $20 million dollars out of $1.4 billion and we still have complaints about wrapped buses/streetcars or re-branded stations. Pocket change or just a portion of the funds that would be raised by a single year of inflation fare hikes. Is this worthy of being an election issue?

So my question still remains, how much advertising would you as an individual TTC rider be willing to be subjected to if it meant avoiding a fare hike for one year (subsequent years would see increases as usual)?

We already know the populace likes to scream bloody murder when faced with any fare hike, even if it is entirely just to keep pace with normal and reasonable costs, so how much advertising and in-station kiosks would it take to placate this emotion? Would that same populace put up with that amount of increased commercialization?

 

[Asterix]

Lest I begin to sound like RF with his "lease the stations out" rhetoric, it really isn't completely outrageous to think increased advertising and retail (smartly) can contribute significantly to public transit revenue.

Looking at practical matters, can you identify which high-traffic stations currently have space available at peak times to allocate to these smartly-increased retail outlets within TTC property?

Haven't people also been decrying the 'cathedral' stations planned for extensions and praising the smaller downtown stations (which they automatically assume are therefore cheaper)?

 

[gweed123]

But that gets back to my point - it isn't as big a deal as many seem to think it is. People seem to think that there are huge gobs of money to be made from advertising and that it could potentially solve all kinds of funding problems (from slashing fares to cleaning stations to building entire subway lines).

That simply isn't true as the TTC budget shows - $15 - $20 million dollars out of $1.4 billion and we still have complaints about wrapped buses/streetcars or re-branded stations. Pocket change or just a portion of the funds that would be raised by a single year of inflation fare hikes. Is this worthy of being an election issue?

So my question still remains, how much advertising would you as an individual TTC rider be willing to be subjected to if it meant avoiding a fare hike for one year (subsequent years would see increases as usual)?

We already know the populace likes to scream bloody murder when faced with any fare hike, even if it is entirely just to keep pace with normal and reasonable costs, so how much advertising and in-station kiosks would it take to placate this emotion? Would that same populace put up with that amount of increased commercialization?

Already answered in Post #1584.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Looking at practical matters, can you identify which high-traffic stations currently have space available at peak times to allocate to these smartly-increased retail outlets within TTC property?

Haven't people also been decrying the 'cathedral' stations planned for extensions and praising the smaller downtown stations (which they automatically assume are therefore cheaper)?

The problem too is that most of the high-volume stations that could conceivably support retail operations are connected to the PATH. Underground retail is pretty well-represented in the downtown core.