EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
what about the cable cars in San Francisco?
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what about the cable cars in San Francisco?
Amare
Senior Member
Just because money can be tossed into making a piece of equipment last longer, doesnt mean that it should be done. I'll use the CLRV's as an example.
If the TTC magically found $300 million tomorrow and decided to refurbish them would it really be worth it? I'd say no because a) it's becoming very difficult to find spare parts to repair them, b) there is a certain skill set required for maintenance workers to actually repair them, and as the years go on in will be harder to find people capable of doing so, c) overhauling the vehicle fixes *most* but not all problems with the equipment as it ages.
Personally i'd love it if the CLRV's could stay another 20-30 years but its just never going to happen. So essentially their are times where patching a problem over and over again, is just not worth it.
If the TTC magically found $300 million tomorrow and decided to refurbish them would it really be worth it? I'd say no because a) it's becoming very difficult to find spare parts to repair them, b) there is a certain skill set required for maintenance workers to actually repair them, and as the years go on in will be harder to find people capable of doing so, c) overhauling the vehicle fixes *most* but not all problems with the equipment as it ages.
Personally i'd love it if the CLRV's could stay another 20-30 years but its just never going to happen. So essentially their are times where patching a problem over and over again, is just not worth it.
nfitz
Superstar
The CLRVs are done, with the specialized equipment, and the lack of accessibility. And they are already 34-38 years old - they'll be 38 to 42 years old when retired.
But the T1s are only 14-20 years old now - and we talking of replacing them about a decade now - 25 to 31 years old. Council should be asking tough questions why this purchase can't be deferred from starting in about 2024 to about 2040.
But the T1s are only 14-20 years old now - and we talking of replacing them about a decade now - 25 to 31 years old. Council should be asking tough questions why this purchase can't be deferred from starting in about 2024 to about 2040.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The T1's are also most likely "done" because the costs of retrofitting them with ATO in the 2020s, and then to either retire or rebuild them 10 years later are probably so high that ordering newer, more reliable, more performance trainsets with higher service quality would make more sense. We'll know for sure in the next few years.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
3D printing may change all that when you can pump out your own replacement parts.
Tulse
Senior Member
While 3D printing has a lot of promise, I very much doubt it will be a significant factor in the next decade or so, especially for parts that are not just structural but have mechanical or electrical function as well.
smallspy
Senior Member
Because we spec and order the equipment to last that long. Just like how New York specs their subways to last 40 years.
Of course, the converse is that Toronto is able to run lighter equipment, and thus the supporting equipment can also be made lighter as well.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
nfitz
Superstar
Ah, that's an interesting point. And there's no doubt that the sole-sourced TR cars are far cheaper than the open-bid 2010 stock Montreal cars.
dowlingm
Senior Member
The lifespan of transit vehicles is often becoming as much about the ability to maintain and upgrade vehicle systems as it is structural integrity, it seems to me. The fishbowl buses could probably last 100 years in Cuba if they didn't physically fall apart first, but the western mod-cons, hybrid powertrains, emissions controls and so on all need to be repaired and replaced over time horizons their designs often don't contemplate.
smallspy
Senior Member
Don't kid yourself - the New Look was an extremely lightly built vehicle that was designed to last only 10 to 15 years. That it lasted as long as it did in places such as Toronto was more of a tribute to how quickly and easily parts could be replaced than any foresight or ability by GM in terms of building a well-built vehicle.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
ShonTron
Moderator
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The SEPTA PCC cars - of which there are only a few operating in regular service on the 15 Girard Line, are actually PCC-II cars. Apart from the shells and some electrical equipment, there's nothing original about them. They're fully air conditioned, without operable passenger windows, wheelchair equipped. They only look old on the outside. Boston's MBTA has a few PCCs operating on the Mattapan High Speed Line, but they have been similarly modernized.
VIA Rail operates many rail cars built in the 1950s by the Budd Corporation, both on the Canadian and on a few corridor trains. The transcontinental cars, known as HEP-I, have been fully rebuilt, and are often rotated in and out of service. The HEP-IIs, used on the Corridor, are at the end of their service life, and require another rebuild or replacement.
AlbertHWagstaff
Senior Member
What streetcars in Philadelphia are 80 years old? The PCC-IIs were originally post-war PCCs, which would make them 70 at most if there was anything original on them. There are a few original components, but basically they have new equipment built for a PCC shell.
New Orleans streetcars and San Francisco cable cars would be older, and not even all the cable cars are that old as they have built several new ones over the years and numbered them in the existing series.
If well maintained and regularly rebuilt, simple older mechanical equipment such as PCCs, Gloucester trains, Montreal (M1) and older Hawker subway cars could conceivably run forever (in fact we got 36-37 years out of some of the subway cars), and 40 years from many of the PCCs). Unless you make a decision to run vintage equipment (SF F Market and E Embarcadero lines, New Orleans St Charles line), eventually the cost of maintenance and obsolescence of the equipment become an issue.
Towered
Superstar
So are any of these rockets going to show up on the Bloor line this century?
nfitz
Superstar
They've already been tested on the Bloor line. There's been sightings.
But there's never been any plan to regularly run the new TR trains on the Bloor-Danforth line. All the T1 trains on the Yonge-University and Sheppard lines will be moved to Bloor-Danforth, and the TR trains will only be used on Yonge-University and Sheppard.
In an emergency (say an unexpected closure of the Prince Edward Viaduct for the day), they have the ability to run TRs out of Wilson on whatever part of the Bloor-Danforth line they can get to. This doesn't happen very often ... I seem to recall something a few years ago, where something had stopped trains passing out the connecting tunnel from Greenwood yard, and reduced service on both Line 1 and Line 2 was done out of Wilson.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The T1 trainsets, which operate on Line 2, are likely up for replacement around 2025. When that happens, the TTC will likely shift the TRs from Line 1 to Line 2, and the new trainsets will be on Line 1.
It's purely speculation at the point, but I feel that this is the most likely scenario because the TTC has been toying with the idea of having even larger trainsets on Line 1 when the T1s are up for replacement.