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1233 Queen East | ?m | 8s

TheTigerMaster said:
Regarding the implementation of One Person Train Operation on our TRs:

Why is OPTO necessary? TTC says they need it for door operations. But I'm sure there are plenty of automated mass transit systems with automated door operations. And even if the TTC insists that doors are controlled by a human (you know, in case our TRs become sentient and try to kill passengers), couldn't the doors be controlled by a human operator from a remote facility, using a live video feed from platform level? This remote operator should be able to handle the operation of significantly more doors than an on site operator would (an on site operator has nothing to do between stations, while the remote operator would have a continuous stream of doors to operate around the system).
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And how do you handle the evacuation of a train in the event of an emergency? What happens if a train becomes disabled in a tunnel?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Then send workers to the affected vehicles.

Plenty of other metros have completely automated operations, and they don't seem to have any issues with operations, including under emergencies.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Then send workers to the affected vehicles.

Plenty of other metros have completely automated operations, and they don't seem to have any issues with operations, including under emergencies.
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I would check to see how many of them maintain employees on their otherwise automated trains if I were you.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
I would check to see how many of them maintain employees on their otherwise automated trains if I were you.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Click to expand...

As of 2012, at least 25 cities use unattended train operation (UTO):
Vancover
Las Vegas
Sao Paulo
Copenhagen
Lille
Paris
Rennes
Lyon
Toulouse
Barcelona
Nuremberg
Lausanne
Torino
Dubai
Kuala Lumpur
Singapore
Hong Kong
Taipei
Osaka
Nagoya
Yokohama
Tokyo
Kobe
Seoul
Busan

All of these metros have trains that operate without staff on board, are a public transport service (airport movers have been disregarded) and have a minimum train capacity of 100 persons.

http://metroautomation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Automated_metros_Atlas_General_Public_2012.pdf
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
As of 2012, at least 25 cities use unattended train operation (UTO):
....Long list removed...
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And how many systems operate in some sort of automated operation with a crew member onboard? How many of those systems were upgrades of existing systems?

I would bet you that the list for the first question is longer than that, and that the list for the second question is extremely short.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

(By the by, that list is only slightly misleading, as many/most of those cities listed have only one or two lines operating as completely automated.)
 
smallspy said:
And how many systems operate in some sort of automated operation with a crew member onboard? How many of those systems were upgrades of existing systems?

I would bet you that the list for the first question is longer than that, and that the list for the second question is extremely short.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

(By the by, that list is only slightly misleading, as many/most of those cities listed have only one or two lines operating as completely automated.)
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Stop moving the goalposts and accept that you were wrong. Do your own research and come back with the 20 lists that satisfy your various requirements.
 
P23 said:
Stop moving the goalposts and accept that you were wrong. Do your own research and come back with the 20 lists that satisfy your various requirements.
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Well, there is a difference between having fully automated operation of trains with NO employees anywhere on board any trains, and having someone on board (roving attendants/customer service staff). Having no one around at all in case of an emergency like a fire would not be very reassuring in my opinion. Are people supposed to evacuate themselves? Stand around and wait for someone to be "sent" as some voice over the crackly PA tells them to stay put? People being sent to emergencies implies that there are people available and posted somewhere ready at a moment's notice, either in stations or at some dispatch point.
 
smably said:
Is there any significant difference between new builds vs. retrofits? It seems like the main barrier to conversion to unattended operation is political, not technical.
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That's kind of my point. There are very, very few upgrades of existing systems that have no onboard staff at all.

While no doubt that a lot of it is likely political, there is also the issue that if you are building a brand new system from scratch that you can configure all of your various life-safety systems to be either smart enough or easy enough to use that you don't necessarily need staff to guide everyone. It is much harder, expensive and time-consuming to retrofit additional emergency exits, for instance, into an existing subway line as compared to a new-build system.

The other issue to consider is that we're trying to make a system that is more reliable. Having a dead train sit in a tunnel for 20 minutes whilst staff travels to attend to it isn't going to help that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
The other issue to consider is that we're trying to make a system that is more reliable. Having a dead train sit in a tunnel for 20 minutes whilst staff travels to attend to it isn't going to help that.
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Yep. Even in a fully automated train I'd still have one person on-board during rush-hour (our lines have fewer trains than stations, it's not a ton of manpower) just for passenger assistance and unusual situations like a localized electrical short causing signal failure (a rather common problem today) that a human driver could creep through.
 
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rbt said:
....(our lines have fewer trains than stations, it's not a ton of manpower)....
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There are 32 stations on the YUS, and 50/51 trains in service, and 31 stations on the B-D and 45/42 trains in service during the rush hours. Even factoring in the Sheppard Line and SRT, I'm not sure how you figure that we have fewer trains in service than stations.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
smallspy said:
There are 32 stations on the YUS, and 50/51 trains in service, and 31 stations on the B-D and 45/42 trains in service during the rush hours. Even factoring in the Sheppard Line and SRT, I'm not sure how you figure that we have fewer trains in service than stations.
Click to expand...

Yep. What I said was clearly wrong.

In my mind I was counting station attendants, not stations but even that may be wrong during rush-hour. We see extra attendants at busy stations but our odds of being at a busy station are significantly increased.
 
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