Toronto 1181 Sheppard Avenue East | 126.85m | 38s | Concord Adex | DIALOG

[taal]

The office building in front of the Toronto Centre for the Arts may have potential. Kraft recently purchased Cadbury and Cadbury occupies a good chunk of space in this building. If Cadbury were to leave this would free up some prime space.

The City deperately needs to entice office development to this area - before it's overrun entirely by condos. They need to more quickly bring taxes in line with the 905 to attract commercial development. It's the geographic centre of the GTA, where 2 subway lines cross and it's next to the 401 - yet they the private sector isn't interested in bringing more office jobs to this key node. We keep hearing about Smart Growth but where's the Smart Density strategy.

Nah I don't think so ... they already vacated a few floors for I think (where's Kraft located btw?) ... when you say they own a lot of space ... it's typically only a few floors ... there aren't too many corporations that own 10-15+ floors in one building, even the larger banks are somewhat dispersed.

Completely agree with your second point, and I've talked about this a lot - are taxes central? Not sure, either way - there have been various projects around the Airport (in Mississauga), Vaughan (only a few here really other then industrial), and Markham (404 / 407 area) Yet we see nothing at all in the outer 416 ... not one development in the outer 416 in the last 5+ years ... it's funny you mention this building, as this was one of the few developments that occurred in the last 10+ years (even in that time frame there's been nothing as far as I'm aware other then this...) ... it's pretty sad ...

 

[marcus_a_j]

Yet we see nothing at all in the outer 416 ... not one development in the outer 416 in the last 5+ years ... it's funny you mention this building, as this was one of the few developments that occurred in the last 10+ years (even in that time frame there's been nothing as far as I'm aware other then this...) ... it's pretty sad ...

The Steeles Technology Campus, built about 5 years ago at Victoria Park and Steeles, has two buildings totalling 500,000 sf. and a third phase of least another 275,000 sf is planned upon finding a lead tenant who will take at least 200,000 sf. These numbers are nothing to sneeze at for being at the edge of the 416.

 

[Gratty]

Nah I don't think so ... they already vacated a few floors for I think (where's Kraft located btw?) ... when you say they own a lot of space ... it's typically only a few floors ... there aren't too many corporations that own 10-15+ floors in one building, even the larger banks are somewhat dispersed.

Completely agree with your second point, and I've talked about this a lot - are taxes central? Not sure, either way - there have been various projects around the Airport (in Mississauga), Vaughan (only a few here really other then industrial), and Markham (404 / 407 area) Yet we see nothing at all in the outer 416 ... not one development in the outer 416 in the last 5+ years ... it's funny you mention this building, as this was one of the few developments that occurred in the last 10+ years (even in that time frame there's been nothing as far as I'm aware other then this...) ... it's pretty sad ...

I was guessing Cadbury had more space because their name was on the building (Kraft is at Don Mills & York Mills).

Taxes are set by the Cities. Toronto has higher commercial taxes but lower property taxes than the 905 cities. That's why you see a $500M house in the 905 paying more property tax than a $500M house in the 416. That's also why you don't see a lot of office development at Yonge & Sheppard when just up the street the north side of Steeles offers significant tax savings.

The City of Toronto recognizes this issue so they are gradually bringing down their commercial taxes over 15 years. This obviously isn't working. The job growth in the 905 (where you generally have to drive to work) has way outpaced job growth in the 416 in part due to this tax difference. For example, Loblaws moved all their offices in the 416 (generally on the subway line) to a new office bldg next to Hwy 410 in Brampton. I don't see any of the mayoralty candidates having the courage to correct this situation.

And on top of all this we have the province's OMB allowing condo developers to convert sites zoned for office use over to residential use. Like Menkes did with the Gibson Square condos where the City fought and lost at the OMB. Thanks Mr McGuinty. We can keep adding more lanes to the 401 I guess.

 

[taal]

The Steeles Technology Campus, built about 5 years ago at Victoria Park and Steeles, has two buildings totalling 500,000 sf. and a third phase of least another 275,000 sf is planned upon finding a lead tenant who will take at least 200,000 sf. These numbers are nothing to sneeze at for being at the edge of the 416.

You're kidding me ...
First of all, that was built around 2000, so over 10 years ago - second, so much for any of the later phases.
There's another interesting group of buildings around the area built 5 years prior to the above, I think it's called 'Cosmopolitan Corporate' on Gordon Baker ... again, another phase was planned for likely over a decade now.


So - struggling, we can come up with two projects in the last 10 years built outside the code - that seems pretty sad at at the very least and a lot to sneeze at.

If there's anyway to justify it please, let me know. It does seem construction outside of the core in the 416 abruptly stopped in 1985-2000.
I think also note, it's not like these areas are full of buildings sitting empty, SCC has a high vacany rate around 14-15% - the large Vic Park - Sheppard employment area is probably around 13 or so.
North york city center around 9% ... these numbers are not terrible at all ... they rival many figures in the downtown core of American cities (at the present time) yet still no development ...

 

[taal]

I was guessing Cadbury had more space because their name was on the building (Kraft is at Don Mills & York Mills).

Taxes are set by the Cities. Toronto has higher commercial taxes but lower property taxes than the 905 cities. That's why you see a $500M house in the 905 paying more property tax than a $500M house in the 416. That's also why you don't see a lot of office development at Yonge & Sheppard when just up the street the north side of Steeles offers significant tax savings.

The City of Toronto recognizes this issue so they are gradually bringing down their commercial taxes over 15 years. This obviously isn't working. The job growth in the 905 (where you generally have to drive to work) has way outpaced job growth in the 416 in part due to this tax difference. For example, Loblaws moved all their offices in the 416 (generally on the subway line) to a new office bldg next to Hwy 410 in Brampton. I don't see any of the mayoralty candidates having the courage to correct this situation.

And on top of all this we have the province's OMB allowing condo developers to convert sites zoned for office use over to residential use. Like Menkes did with the Gibson Square condos where the City fought and lost at the OMB. Thanks Mr McGuinty. We can keep adding more lanes to the 401 I guess.

While we're on the same page ... you really have to be careful when looking at one particular case ... for example, Loblaws moved employees throughout the GTA and Toronto and Calgary! To this new office, it was a very large consolidation effort and taxes may have not been at the center. It's likely a combination of land value, they wanted a new build all together. Anyway, I'm not saying it's good they moved where they did but this sort of thing is expected to a certain degree and is OK.

Moreover - of course the 905 will grow at a faster rate employment wise ... that's to be expected ... there's a lot of land available that's well connected (from a hi-way point of view..).
I'm really concentrating on the outer 416 - which has likely faced 0% job growth (if not negative) in the last 10 years or so.

"I don't see any of the mayoralty candidates having the courage to correct this situation."

Likely because it's so hard politically ... I dare any politician to come out with a platform stating they'll increase residential rates in line with the rest of the GTA and lower commerical rates accordingly
I agree though, but I do wonder if it's 100% taxes, may be a combination of factors at play ... again, we're going to see growth in Mississauga airportish area (not MCC) / Brampton / Vaughan / Markham (407/404 - Warden) and that's fine, as long as we get some growth as well.

 

[valkoholic]

hmm, didn't you read the post that started this thread after a year or so
The point was they were planning on building a somewhat large office building around Sheppard and Leslie but that plan was canceled (apparently) and as an alternative they'll simply lease space in existing offices. This could work only if they're willing to take space in multiple buildings but then why wouldn't they just stay where they are.

Without looking at the link above, that plan centers around the old bus station - the office buildings (also TVO's headquarters and various other agencies) Canadian tire only owns most of the space in one building - will remain as is ...

Sorry, I should've been more clear.

The Y/E plan shows the Canada Square towers more or less intact but with the podium blown away to form a new pedestrian connection to Yonge. This won't happen without the redevelopment of Canada Square.

Canadian Tire won't find a contigious office space of 500,000 sf so they may well ask someone to develop a new building for them. The Sheppard/Leslie project may be dead but the idea of them moving to a newly built building is likely not.

 

[taal]

Sorry, I should've been more clear.

The Y/E plan shows the Canada Square towers more or less intact but with the podium blown away to form a new pedestrian connection to Yonge. This won't happen without the redevelopment of Canada Square.

Canadian Tire won't find a contigious office space of 500,000 sf so they may well ask someone to develop a new building for them. The Sheppard/Leslie project may be dead but the idea of them moving to a newly built building is likely not.

I think they probably take a good chunk of "2180 Yonge Street" but not all (as TVO is here as well) which has about 400,000 square feet - but if they plan on consolidating + growth they need a new build quite clearly - makes you afraid they'll likely move someone in the 905 ... time will tell ...

 

[TrickyRicky]

Companies like C Tire and Loblaws are primarily about logistics and distribution. I suspect it inevitable that such companies would have there primary offices in the 905 where the distribution centres are by necessity.

 

[Observer Walt]

Companies like C Tire and Loblaws are primarily about logistics and distribution. I suspect it inevitable that such companies would have there primary offices in the 905 where the distribution centres are by necessity.

There is probably some truth to that, but they also would have to consider where their employees live and how many of them might be lost if a move to the suburbs were required. I understand that Loblaws lost quite a few employees when their head office moved out to Brampton, and I'm not sure that CT would want a similar experience.

 

[taal]

There is probably some truth to that, but they also would have to consider where their employees live and how many of them might be lost if a move to the suburbs were required. I understand that Loblaws lost quite a few employees when their head office moved out to Brampton, and I'm not sure that CT would want a similar experience.

This is true, they lost a lot from Calgary (although that's expected to a certain degree) ... cross country move and all.

I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment here though - there's really no need for them to be located downtown, granted, but at the same time I see no benefit of locating their corporate headquarters anywhere need their distribution plant, they likely have many of these throughout the country. So having said that, the outer 416 (where rents are cheaper) or the 905 both make sense - so why 905 over 416, tax? If that's all it comes down to it's a loss for the city, if we can't keep such employers in the city we'll be in big trouble over the long run.

 

[Tuscani01]

Companies like C Tire and Loblaws are primarily about logistics and distribution. I suspect it inevitable that such companies would have there primary offices in the 905 where the distribution centres are by necessity.

Distribution and home office are two separate entities. There is no need for them to be located together. The distribution centres all have their own offices built in. CT does not want to leave Toronto and wont, so don't worry.

For now, they are happy at Canada Square.

 

[Tulse]

Would it be at feasible to expand/extend the Canada Square complex itself, in order to accommodate Canadian Tire? Or would that be too expensive and take too long?

 

[Big Daddy]

CT does not want to leave Toronto and wont, so don't worry.

For now, they are happy at Canada Square.

I used to work at CTC head office and I can tell you they are not happy at Canada Square. They have been searching for a long time for a solution to their space needs and I suspect they will ultimately locate in the burbs because a retailer can't justify downtown rents when space is so much cheaper elsewhere. They were prepared to relocate back when Walmart came to Canada, but cancelled plans as they didn't want to take their focus off Walmart. That move was to be out of the 416. I won't say where.

My guess is when they move it will be closer to the airport but thats just my guess - that's where I and most of the marketing people spent most of our time.

 

[Big Daddy]

Would it be at feasible to expand/extend the Canada Square complex itself, in order to accommodate Canadian Tire? Or would that be too expensive and take too long?

There was a plan to build a new, 40 storrey office building for CTC over the bus bays just west of the existing buildings. That plan was shelved due to the cost of putting the bus bays underground. It might have worked with another tenant, but again why would a retailer pay downtown rents when space is so much cheaper in the burbs?

 

[taal]

There was a plan to build a new, 40 storrey office building for CTC over the bus bays just west of the existing buildings. That plan was shelved due to the cost of putting the bus bays underground. It might have worked with another tenant, but again why would a retailer pay downtown rents when space is so much cheaper in the burbs?

You have to be careful, can't that apply to almost every company? Where do these sort of organizations locate in other cities? Where are lowes / costco / walmart / maceys / ... located?

Honestly, I don't buy the space issue If they want it all in one building sure, but the other building in Canada square has a lot of space available ... that makes me believe your statement above i.e. that it's about rents ... so in that sense, I had really hoped the development at sheppard would have worked out and I fear you're going to be correct in the next 5 years or so