TO is now 2nd most expensive city in North America

[Whoaccio]

Sort of related, Toronto has the 7th most competitive tax environment of "35 major international cities with estimated metro-area populations of at least 2 million". We got beat by San Juan, Puebla, Guadalajara, Vancouver (surprised the hell out of me), Monterey and Montreal (surprised me even more).

- http://www.kpmg.ca/en/services/tax/documents/CompetitiveAlternativesFocusonTaxFINAL.pdf

But yea, Toronto is most certainly not the second most expensive city in N. America. The results are just being distorted by the CAD run up and the housing meltdown in the USA.

Archivist: But even within Germany, Berlin punches below its economic weight, and the anticipated moves of head offices to the city just didn't happen. It's an odd city for dichotomy in particular to have named Berlin in his question above, given the city's well documented problems with debt and unemployment despite the enormous infusion of federal dollars to the capitalm, and his frequent disparaging comments about Toronto's economic malaise.

Dichotomy's MO isn't to be right. It is just to make unsubstantiated statements, treat them like fact and then to refer to any contradictory facts as a socialist conspiracy theory. Too much Lou Dobbs.

 

[Dichotomy]

Toronto is probably the worst Canadian city in the world. Why would anyone want to live in such a crowded, polluted mess? Life here in Waterloo is relaxing and you can easily have over two acres of your own land for the price of a closet in Toronto.... This is Canada, not Hong Kong, no one wants to live in 200 sq ft hell-hole hundreds of feet in the air... Why doesn't the communist Ontario government just let people live in the country and enjoy nature, it's much more environmentally friendly.

And another thing, if Toronto really wants to be 'world class' it should stop trying to please the creme de la creme liberal yuppies and build some real roads... why didn't it just tear down buildings along streets like Yonge and Bloor and build wider roads 70 years ago when it had the chance.... every real global city built 6-8 lane roads around the city long ago, but all toronto planners can do is worship ancient modes bikes and trains instead of moving into the 20th century... the city is building 50 storey eyesores everywhere without building any roads or new expressways.... we need to look to the Houston model, they have some of the most headquarters of any city in North America

Thinking of living in that crime-ridden ghetto makes me physically ill... they should just raze the city and start over.

Okay, stop stealing my thunder! LOL

Toronto isn't a hell-hole just yet, but if drastic measures aren't taken NOW, it will be in another 10 years.
You're absolutely right: this is not Hong Kong.

The social conservatives and environmentalists make strange bedfellows: the more Moraine that is set aside, the more astronomical will housing prices become. Who does that benefit, exactly?

Unlike Hong Kong, business in the old City of Toronto DO have a choice and can move to the 905 area.

 

[Dichotomy]

Sort of related, Toronto has the 7th most competitive tax environment of "35 major international cities with estimated metro-area populations of at least 2 million". We got beat by San Juan, Puebla, Guadalajara, Vancouver (surprised the hell out of me), Monterey and Montreal (surprised me even more).

- http://www.kpmg.ca/en/services/tax/documents/CompetitiveAlternativesFocusonTaxFINAL.pdf

But yea, Toronto is most certainly not the second most expensive city in N. America. The results are just being distorted by the CAD run up and the housing meltdown in the USA.



Dichotomy's MO isn't to be right. It is just to make unsubstantiated statements, treat them like fact and then to refer to any contradictory facts as a socialist conspiracy theory. Too much Lou Dobbs.

Ask any business traveller or travel agent about 'top destinations,' and cities like New York, London, Paris, Berlin, etc. get named very quickly. Toronto is not in their league by ANY measure. Egad, have you been to those cities? Toronto is quaint and provincial (no pun intended) by comparison. If we are lucky, Toronto is second tier.

We need to get off our ego trips and stop thinking of ourselves as the center of the Universe. No wonder so many Canadians can't stand Torontonians!

It only suits city hall to compare us to London and Paris when it comes to cutting back on roadways: those cities are more than twice the size and about a thousand years older - they have their own issues. We have no excuses because 90% of this city was built SINCE the motorcar. Council after council has made piss poor choices and the majority of the citizenry doesn't bother to get off its bullocks, unless someone builds a 60 story condo in their tomato garden. I know: I am guilty. My political days died in the early '80s when I moved away from Toronto and pursued economic goals.

Not enough people bother to attend city hall meetings or call their councilor. That has to change. Too many lazy decisions have been made for far too long.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The social conservatives and environmentalists make strange bedfellows: the more Moraine that is set aside, the more astronomical will housing prices become. Who does that benefit, exactly?

Actually, conservatives (the social label has more to do with issues such as the family and the state) are likely to argue that the state have no business regulating land use and therefore be opposed to keeping development off the Moraine.

Unlike Hong Kong, business in the old City of Toronto DO have a choice and can move to the 905 area.

So do individuals who are living in the old City of Toronto who think the city is going to be hell in a handbasket.

AoD

 

[Hipster Duck]

^Just in case you all thought this thread had turned into "Satiricon" (the satire convention) 2008, this Dichotomy guy is not being sarcastic and he's not using the acronym LOL in an ironic way.

 

[Anth]

^Just in case you all thought this thread had turned into "Satiricon" (the satire convention) 2008, this Dichotomy guy is not being sarcastic and he's not using the acronym LOL in an ironic way.

It's times like these UT could use a Kotaku-style Ban Day when persistent malcontents can be permanently voted off the site.

 

[Dichotomy]

Actually, conservatives (the social label has more to do with issues such as the family and the state) are likely to argue that the state have no business regulating land use and therefore be opposed to keeping development off the Moraine.



So do individuals who are living in the old City of Toronto who think the city is going to be hell in a handbasket.

AoD

Or, we can stay and fight what is ALSO ours.

Economic conservatives would LOVE to see restrictions on parcels of land around the GTA, that way their property values will sky rocket. It's the same reasoning that keeps the oil companies from building more refineries: why build something that will only result in the price of your product having to drop, so let the eco-loonies do the heavy lifting for you.
Social conservatives are more concerned about family issues.

Hong Kong is mostly an island. What choice do they have? Hong Kong nearly has the same population as Southern Ontario - not quite a fair comparison.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Considering that you've misused the term social conservatives in your orginal post, I wouldn't count on you to explain anything.

And just so you know, Hong Kong SAR is NOT mostly an island - and we aren't talking about just the Hong Kong Island, which has a population of around 1 million or so. In addition, I don't thnk anyone on here is advocating for Hong Kong styled planning, unless of course you've fallen for some a sarcastic post by another forumer.

AoD

 

[Whoaccio]

Ask any business traveller or travel agent about 'top destinations,' and cities like New York, London, Paris, Berlin, etc. get named very quickly. Toronto is not in their league by ANY measure. Egad, have you been to those cities? Toronto is quaint and provincial (no pun intended) by comparison. If we are lucky, Toronto is second tier.

The only people comparing Toronto to New York, London, Paris ect is you and you're ilk. How many times do you want us to say "Toronto is not New York" until you stop using that as a straw man to every debate? Just in case you still don't get it (you probably don't) Toronto DOES NOT equal NYC. Clear enough?

We need to get off our ego trips and stop thinking of ourselves as the center of the Universe. No wonder so many Canadians can't stand Torontonians!

The only people who think Toronto is the center of the universe is you. According to you, Toronto has the worst roads, the worst social life, the worst economy. Pretty much a superlative of everything. You continually ignore that Toronto has pretty much the same problems as every other city because it dispels you're dystopic vision of being some kind of bulwark against the coming apocalypse. So what if congestion in Toronto is totally proportionate to N. American (not even European or Asian) standards? If it doesn't fit you're view that you are some kind of Lot fleeing Sodom, it doesn't really matter now does it.

It only suits city hall to compare us to London and Paris when it comes to cutting back on roadways: those cities are more than twice the size and about a thousand years older - they have their own issues. We have no excuses because 90% of this city was built SINCE the motorcar.

And you continually compare us to cities with absolutely no justifiaction or even logic. You lament the favorability of LA traffic not because it flows better (it doesn't) but because "you can choose where to get stuck in gridlock". Sao Paulo is a beacon for Toronto, according to you, because it has six lane urban roads. Never mind that Sao Paulo has the worst traffic on the continent and people are being forced to fly to work. I wish i was making that up.

And, for the love of god, just look at you're logic there: At first you decry the London-Paris comparison. Why? Because the cities are 2x the size. According to you, London and Paris can justify having narrow roads because they are "more than twice the size"! Great, when Toronto reaches 12m people then (and only then) can we start narrowing roadways.

 

[Dichotomy]

It's times like these UT could use a Kotaku-style Ban Day when persistent malcontents can be permanently voted off the site.

Just because someone's opinion differs? Sorry, that is not reason enough to ban someone. If someone is being rude, vulgar, belligerent and constantly making personal attacks - okay, that is certainly reason to ban someone. If someone is being contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian (like MP's famous Argument Clinic sketch), then that would be tiresome, but reason enough for banning?

But just because of differing opinions?

I've been on other sites where the hue and cry is that people are sick of listening to all the 'pimply-faced' teenagers who think they know everything. I don't abide by that. Those young 'uns need to understand how the world works.

The wonderful thing about the internet is that it brings a cross-section of people together because it is a PUBLIC forum.

Although I have observed that on many sites, unerringly the dissenting opinions get shouted down and those sites become one big, boring fan club for the Orwellian types.

Since it has been brought up twice, I chose 'Dichotomy' quite deliberately. As anyone who knows me will attest, I cannot be pigeon-holed. Moral/social liberals with economic conservative leanings are not so rare these days.

In my day, I was the only one of my peers who did NOT get arrested climbing the fence at Darlington (because I didn't go!), but I did get trucked off to protest Anita Bryant.

And 25 years ago, I freaked on city hall for banning tall buildings because I thought it was stupid - little did I know that this is what they had in mind!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Is this more about the public; the sharing of knowledge, or is it about some deeply seated narcissistic/exhibitionist streak? Like who really cares about you, your peers, whether you can be pigeon-holed or not, what you had for breakfast, what and who you did 25 years ago, etc. Like honestly, what are you trying to convince us of - that you've erred in your hot-headed past and have now seen the light and somehow everyone who thinks otherwise are lunatics?

AoD

 

[Dichotomy]

The only people comparing Toronto to New York, London, Paris ect is you and you're ilk. How many times do you want us to say "Toronto is not New York" until you stop using that as a straw man to every debate? Just in case you still don't get it (you probably don't) Toronto DOES NOT equal NYC. Clear enough?



The only people who think Toronto is the center of the universe is you. According to you, Toronto has the worst roads, the worst social life, the worst economy. Pretty much a superlative of everything. You continually ignore that Toronto has pretty much the same problems as every other city because it dispels you're dystopic vision of being some kind of bulwark against the coming apocalypse. So what if congestion in Toronto is totally proportionate to N. American (not even European or Asian) standards? If it doesn't fit you're view that you are some kind of Lot fleeing Sodom, it doesn't really matter now does it.



And you continually compare us to cities with absolutely no justifiaction or even logic. You lament the favorability of LA traffic not because it flows better (it doesn't) but because "you can choose where to get stuck in gridlock". Sao Paulo is a beacon for Toronto, according to you, because it has six lane urban roads. Never mind that Sao Paulo has the worst traffic on the continent and people are being forced to fly to work. I wish i was making that up.

And, for the love of god, just look at you're logic there: At first you decry the London-Paris comparison. Why? Because the cities are 2x the size. According to you, London and Paris can justify having narrow roads because they are "more than twice the size"! Great, when Toronto reaches 12m people then (and only then) can we start narrowing roadways.

?????

Ah, read my posts. I certainly do not think Toronto is the center of the Universe. Council does when they parade forward statistics on what London is doing (taxing cars to go downtown) and other cities. In this thread (which is about expensive cities, Toronto is being held up with other 'world class cities' in the world - a label I don't feel is justified, except maybe with respect to traffic, expense and poor planning.
London and Paris are 1,000 years older than Toronto, yet our council will go to great lengths to look at how London is dealing with its downtown! The Romans built some of those roads, for Gawd's Sake! How dare we compare our traffic with London's, yet Miller has looked to London for solutions (when it suits him.)
Have you been to Sao Paulo? I have, several times. They have stacked highways, underground highways and even 3 levels of subway in some places. They have buried their roads and built parks on top. I've raised that point to only to illustrate what a '3rd world' country is capable of in comparison to what we aren't. And don't believe the hype about people flying to work in Sao Paulo. I got off the plane and expected to see a Jetsons sky with helicopters everywhere. I saw very few in fact. Your logic is flawed because Sao Paulo should have worse traffic than ours because it is 18 million people. Why can we not do better?
Toronto needs North American solutions because we have more in common with our neighbors to the south than we do those in Sao Paulo or Hong Kong or London.

 

[Whoaccio]

Ohh for the love of god. Don't bring out Orwell references. I wish he had never existed. It has basically given anybody with a gr. 8 education the ability to make poor similes and shutdown debate by presenting himself as the victim of being an some kind of totalitarian thought control.

1.) The people who tend to use the term "Orwellian" are often the types of people who disagree with him the most if they ever meet him. He was a raging socialist for the love of god.

2.) Nobody is telling you you can't have you're own opinion, the true defiinition of "Orwellian".

3.) This forum isn't "public". It is paid for and operated by a private group of people that can ban whoever they want.

4.) Freedom to speech doesn't somehow translate to a mandate for everybody to listen to you. That is "Orwellian". It's the reason why Toronto Sun columnists don't get jobs at the Globe or even the Post. To a certain extent, you need to meet certain benchmarks of factual accuracy and coherent reasoning.

5.) Stop using tired cliches like Orwellian. For the love of god, hasn't anybody read anything other than 1984? It isn't even that good of a book.

 

[Hipster Duck]

We need to get off our ego trips and stop thinking of ourselves as the center of the Universe. No wonder so many Canadians can't stand Torontonians!

This cliché is so worn out it makes "New York is full of crime" or "Britain has lousy food" sound like something written by Pico Iyer.

In this thread (which is about expensive cities, Toronto is being held up with other 'world class cities' in the world - a label I don't feel is justified, except maybe with respect to traffic, expense and poor planning.
London and Paris are 1,000 years older than Toronto, yet our council will go to great lengths to look at how London is dealing with its downtown! The Romans built some of those roads, for Gawd's Sake! How dare we compare our traffic with London's, yet Miller has looked to London for solutions (when it suits him.)

Ha ha ha. This is fucking priceless! I don't think Ken Livingstone's congestion pricing scheme was an ad hoc response to roads built during the reign of Augustus. Hell, using that kind of "logic", we should probably narrow Dundas street down to the width of an Iroquois foot path.

 

[Whoaccio]

Is this more about the public; the sharing of knowledge, or is it about some deeply seated narcissistic/exhibitionist streak? Like who really cares about you, your peers, whether you can be pigeon-holed or not, what you had for breakfast, what you did 25 years ago, etc.

AoD

Exactly. A poster like Glen, much as I disagree with him, usually makes factual statements that I was hitherto unaware of. All Dichotomy seems capable of is presenting us with his life story ("when I went to Brazil...", "I used to live at Bathurst and Steeles", "this one time I climbed up a fence", "The dog walkers I talk to"). I don't think one "argument" he has presented has been from a non-first person perspective.

Ah, read my posts. I certainly do not think Toronto is the center of the Universe. Council does when they parade forward statistics on what London is doing (taxing cars to go downtown) and other cities. In this thread (which is about expensive cities, Toronto is being held up with other 'world class cities' in the world - a label I don't feel is justified, except maybe with respect to traffic, expense and poor planning.

Toronto is a world city. You don't have to like it for it to be a world city. In a nutshell, the TSE and big five banks alone qualifies us as a "world class city" (you are the only person here using that term, btw). Being a world city doesn't imply you being happy. It implies having an important role. By hosting Canada's financial industry, most of it's service and manufacturing industry (see how long the last one lasts), Toronto is a global city. You may not like it, that is fine.

London and Paris are 1,000 years older than Toronto, yet our council will go to great lengths to look at how London is dealing with its downtown! The Romans built some of those roads, for Gawd's Sake! How dare we compare our traffic with London's, yet Miller has looked to London for solutions (when it suits him.)

Traffic is traffic. It really is that simple. London looked to Singapore for it's solutions. Guess how much London and Singapore have in common? Miller drew the only conclusion one could logically derive: If congestion is an issue, a Pigovian tax on car use is a possible solution. Personally, I don't think we need a congestion tax as congestion isn't anywhere near London or Singapore levels. That said, if we wanted to reduce the amount of cars in a given area, road pricing definitely would do that. I don't care who built the roads.

Have you been to Sao Paulo? I have, several times. They have stacked highways, underground highways and even 3 levels of subway in some places. They have buried their roads and built parks on top. I've raised that point to only to illustrate what a '3rd world' country is capable of in comparison to what we aren't. And don't believe the hype about people flying to work in Sao Paulo. I got off the plane and expected to see a Jetsons sky with helicopters everywhere. I saw very few in fact. Your logic is flawed because Sao Paulo should have worse traffic than ours because it is 18 million people. Why can we not do better?

Do you understand the difference between anecdotes and arguments? If all you can do is give "from my experience" crap, why should anybody listen to you? In my experience, you are an idiot. That doesn't make it so, now does it?