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Time for a tunnel to airport island?

Ridiculous politicking by Vaughan:
3) Why shouldn't the Island Airport or the airlines self-finance this project as Pearson must do when it contemplates improvements?[/I]

Pearson does not pay for upgrades to access routes to the airport. It pays for improvements to facilities on its properties. Porter did just that when it paid to upgrade the terminal on the Island. And the city isn't even being asked to pitch in for the tunnel, it's the feds and the province who are helping out.

Pearson did pay for all of the road work rearrangements at the end of the 409 entering the Airport. The tunnel will be between two airport related buildings just as the ferry is today. It cannot be considered an extension of the street to the airport; rather is a part of the airport itself.

Blue 22, Dixon road, 409/427/401 interchange work is all done at a municipal, provincial and federal level.

Vancouver Airport kicked in significant funding for the spur of the Canada Line -- possibly covering the full cost of the spur (really don't know -- the number in my head is $300M from the airport toward that project).

Pearson is expected to pay for Terminal 1 reconfigurations for the Eglinton and Finch lines if they terminate inside the terminal building. Won't really know until the EA is done for that portion of the lines.
 
- Where are the plans for this project and how was a cost estimated without detailed drawings?

From my understanding, the TPA has issued an RFP regarding the tunnel to be received within three weeks. I don't know why this is really question worthy, every project starts with preliminary estimates and requirements before further clarifying goals and costs.

Where is the business case for this $38m project? The TPA board has not seen one and neither have the governments or taxpayers

Once again, no such official documentation exists. Comments by McGuinty and the Federal government indicating support of the project are merely token statements, not government policy. That Porter or the TPA has not produced a formal BCA or EA within days of officially proposing such a project is hardly newsworthy or remarkable.

Why shouldn't the Island Airport or the airlines self-finance this project as Pearson must do when it contemplates improvements?
Because we have a stimulus package designed to stimulate the economy, a goal which the involved parties will most likely argue the tunnel proposal advances. Not to mention minor tidbits like 600m+ of public financing for the UPRL to the benefit of Pearson, as well as the (totally) subsidized construction of transit like the Eglinton LRT to the benefit of Pearson.

How can the premier and the federal government give a favourable review to this vague project when an actual application for infrastructure funding has not been approved by the TPA Board?

Umm... easy? For instance, the Premier is asked if he supports the conceptual idea of a tunnel, he says "maybe." See, easy! There is no law anywhere that politicians are required to withhold initial judgment until after a formal EA. I don't even get why he bothers bringing this up considering he and his ilk showed no reservations in supporting projects like Transit City prior to formal EAs and endorsed it even when it was a "vague project." That is what politicians are supposed to do.

Why has this particular proposal jumped the queue? Why when the city wants to build a subway to York University and serve millions of people with better transit, do the Federal Tories insist that the city form a public-private partnership to qualify for funding, yet on this project they propose a 100% public subsidy all to the advantage of a single airline?

That is very factually incorrect. Given the whole preliminary status of things, I won't speak categorically, but the TPA has already pledged to cover 20% of the costs, and federal stimulus rules limit federal contributions to a maximum of 50% of project costs. Conceivably more money could, maybe should, be raised from user fees but talk of a "100% public subsidy" is totally without basis.

When $38m dollars is given over to one company with no public process and it is used to subsidize the movement of a small group of travellers, something is seriously wrong. This is the privilege that I question.
First, see above about funding. Second, the proposal will be submitted to bi-partisan pannels to determine its' eligibility for stimulus funds within the context of the Tripartite Agreement. Third, the formal EA proccess will include a community consultation component, why Vaughan keeps ignoring the preliminary nature of everything I have no idea. Fourth, what bloody privilege? Porter is a publicly accessible low cost carrier in full compliance with all pertinent accessibility regulations. "Privilege" implies a kind of "special advantage", and no given social group has any particular preferential access to Porter or the YTZ.

It has nothing to do with class, unless you are talking about a particular class of politician who circumvents public process to hand out public tax dollars to private interests.

Keeping in mind the preliminary nature of all this, why does Vaughan imply that only he, with a mighty electorate of seven thousand, is more representative of "the public" than either Dalton McGuinty or the the consensus between Ignatieff and Harper, who together represent millions of Canadians, on the subject of stimulus eligibility? Legally, the TPA is not even subject to Vaughan's authority in this matter. Clearly his grasp of civics and the rule of law is lacking.

Something is wrong at the TPA, and before the Conservatives, with help from Queen's Park, shovel more taxpayers’ dollars towards this tunnel project of questionable value Torontonians, taxpayers – in fact Canadians – deserve answers. Instead we get a silly debate about class war.

Then it would be wise not to base your entire argument around disqualifying the many Torontonians who enjoy Porter's services as being a "privileged elite" and unworthy of recognition. Vaughan et al have been flogging class warfare like pirated DVDs at a Chinese flea market and he has the gall to write that criticism of his lies and, to some extent, libel of hundreds of thousands is a "silly debate"?

To be clear: I don't think the island airport is needed; it's not a boon to the waterfront or a transportation priority for Toronto. But if it is there and people use it, so be it. My quarrel is not with the choices people make to get to Ottawa. My concern is with a federal government in Ottawa that makes up the rules as it goes along and in doing so provides substantial public subsidies through its agencies to private interests. It is this set of privileges I attack and seek to end.
Perhaps if Vaughan could list some of these alleged instinces of males fides he would give a more credible argument. As it is, he himself as a representative of City Council has been found to have spuriously modified rules for the purpose of circumventing contractual obligations and contravening relevant contracts related to the operation of TCCA. (see my earlier post for a summary of relevant court documents) Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
 
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The tunnel will be between two airport related buildings just as the ferry is today. It cannot be considered an extension of the street to the airport; rather is a part of the airport itself.

It's quite amazing then, how the airport is not allowed to build what it wants (a bridge) on its own lands. Imagine slapping that kind of restriction on construction at Pearson.

Imagine if the mayor decided that the residents of Rexdale are worth just as much as the Islanders and decide that he was going to oppose any improvements in accessibility to Pearson because he didn't want more air traffic in the area. If that seems absurd, that's exactly what the situation looks like to those of us who live north of Bloor.

Pearson did pay for all of the road work rearrangements at the end of the 409 entering the Airport...

Blue 22, Dixon road, 409/427/401 interchange work is all done at a municipal, provincial and federal level.

Vancouver Airport kicked in significant funding for the spur of the Canada Line -- possibly covering the full cost of the spur (really don't know -- the number in my head is $300M from the airport toward that project).

Pearson is expected to pay for Terminal 1 reconfigurations for the Eglinton and Finch lines if they terminate inside the terminal building. Won't really know until the EA is done for that portion of the lines.

It's unfortunate for those entities that they had to build a lot of their projects in an era where federal and provincial stimulus money was not available. There is nothing that says they can't apply for funds today just like the TPA is doing.

Somehow though, I don't think this is about the money. If the bill does work out to $38 million that's roughly 1.4 times the price of a Q400. I think Porter would be more than willing to foot the bill because the fuel savings alone from scrapping one ferry would help the TPA tremendously and secure Porter some savings down the road. I am fairly sure this fight has moved (once again) to an existential debate about YTZ.
 
Is Pearson paying for the upgrade and dis-entangling of the 409? And that work has cost a lot more than 38 million.

Yes. They own, maintain, and build all approach roads. All the freeway west of the 427 into the airport is on their property. Just like the TPA pays for the ferry, the GTAA pays for their people mover. The tunnel will be built completely on TPA property just like the APM and 409 approach roads are on GTAA property. If the tunnel went off TPA property (federal lands) they would need a city permit so I think they will likely avoid that.
 
I agree most of Vaughan's letter is nonsense. The Transit City funding arrived prior to detailed drawings like most projects because detailed drawings cost money too, the business case for an agency with one client to please is obvious, the reason they would want it is obvious, since when did an unofficial positive responses need paperwork, and the local body that prioritized it for funding is obviously the Toronto Port Authority. This is why I'm not a big fan of Vaughan. The posturing, like him joining in Community Air pickets, is a complete waste of time. There are only two ways the city can legitimately close the island airport: (a) pay big bucks to buy out Porter and any other business on the island or pay enough that they would take the money and move themselves, or (b) provide a better alternative to the people who have chosen to use it. Option "a" is financially impossible at this point... it may have been possible before the first Porter flights flew but the sun has set on that option now because it would be far too expensive.
 
If the tunnel went off TPA property (federal lands) they would need a city permit so I think they will likely avoid that.

It's clearly not a cut and dry case. How was the city able to stall the bridge? Did that go off TPA property? More than likely, the city will deny the TPA a building permit, end up in court again....and maybe end up paying for the tunnel. They might not need stimulus money after all!

Other than that, I do think the TPA could build the tunnel without federal and provincial assistance. I don't blame them for applying for the funds if they are available though. It's up to the respective governments to decide if the deployment of those funds is worthwhile. And I don't see why they would turn it down. Spend 38 million to save millions a year in ferry operating costs, is a no-brainer.
 
I don't blame them for applying for the funds if they are available though.

Exactly. The feds said that they have a huge bucket of cash that they want to give to anyone that wants it for stuff that is going to be built right away. So the TPA came up with something that could be done quickly.

The city came up with a list of one thing that didn't qualify for the federal dollars.

I expect that the tunnel plan would have come up in due course. The current ferry is already getting very crowded, and unless the new one is a LOT bigger, growing passenger volumes won't take to long to fill up that one too.

EDIT: Does the TPA own the shipping channel that the tunnel would cross? Or is that city property?
 
Spend 38 million to save millions a year in ferry operating costs, is a no-brainer.

i think it's a no-brainer to apply. i'm not sure it's a no-brainer to grant it. there may be more worthy projects. (i haven't seen list of proposed projects. i'm saying that there might be.) i think the part about the need for detail plans is because these projects have to be shovel-ready and quickly finish-able. it's just harder to tell without detail plans.

i know that the thread is about the proposed tunnel, but i think it's also a red herring, a symptom and not the disease.

i was reading the tasse report this morning and it got to thinking about the israeli-palestinian conflict. i'm not drawing a direct equivalence, just noting some similarities (bad history, deeply entrenched positions, people questioning each other's right to exist). the report put a lot of blame on a small but vocal group of protesters and also recommended the tpa do a much better job at outreach.

so, any suggestions? i recommended one small one, but it was shot down (hastily and without much consideration in my opinion). so any ideas for a "road map"? i haven't read any so far.

i don't always agree with joe, the guy i mentioned earlier, but i respect his efforts to bring understanding to a heated issue.
 
It's quite amazing then, how the airport is not allowed to build what it wants (a bridge) on its own lands. Imagine slapping that kind of restriction on construction at Pearson.

Pearson airport is still obligated to receive building permits, do environmental leg work, etc.

YTZ was unable to 1) get all building permits and 2) get approval from the Federal Ministry of the Environment.

The tunnel will require significant input from #2. It's a fish habitat and work is very restricted. This is the same reason why rebuilding the doc-wall and bridges is taking a long time, the construction season is very limited due to federal environmental rules.


Anyway, I'm actually pro-tunnel (and pro-Blue22). I just don't like opinion being thrown around as fact.

For those watching carefully, I remain anti-YTZ as an airport; but so long as it exists it might as well be useful -- renewal of the tripartite agreement (2030's) will give us a chance to decide what to do. The rest of the waterfront will have been fully built out by this time so that land will be extremely valuable.
 
It's clearly not a cut and dry case. How was the city able to stall the bridge? Did that go off TPA property? More than likely, the city will deny the TPA a building permit, end up in court again....and maybe end up paying for the tunnel. They might not need stimulus money after all!

The port authority did not receive approval to build from the Federal Ministry of the Environment. I don't believe their was an official response as to why.
 
i think it's a no-brainer to apply. i'm not sure it's a no-brainer to grant it.

Even if the tunnel doesn't get built, simply coming up with the idea has gotten them a lot of press coverage, opinion articles, endless forum threads, etc. which gives more publicity to Porter, reminding people that they have a travel option from the island.
 
The city came up with a list of one thing that didn't qualify for the federal dollars.

The cities list is public on a number of news websites.

Total projects: $622M with roughly 1/3rd from the feds.

FYI, we got the province to pay for 1/3rd of $1.2B rather than 1/3rd of $622M -- so all in all I think the streetcar bluff stuff worked out in Toronto's favour.

The catch, of course, is Toronto's debt load will be way up but this is true for most governments around the world.
 
I am pretty sure that back when they came up with the tunnel idea for stimulus money (May? June?), Toronto had not come up with the longer list.

Toronto has had the longer list since the beginning. None of the projects on it are new -- they're all deferred from prior years.

The gamble was to get the entirety of $1.2B covered (streetcars) instead of a portion of $600M. It appears in reality we will get a little of both.

My only question with this is if stimulus isn't restricted to municipalities, then why didn't we see submissions from the federal parks department for Downsview Park and GO Transit (various Rail expansion), GTTA (airport works), Hamilton Airport Authority, etc.?


Digs through list for Ontario: Windsor Airport, Wawa airport, Arnprior airport, Gillies Airport, and Barrie Airport are getting various resurfacing and minor expansion (taxiway, etc.) projects done.

http://www.buildingcanada-chantierscanada.gc.ca/media/news-nouvelles/2009/on-pl-eng.html


Seems kosher to me then with the only oddity is that the application is being sent directly instead of via the Municipality.
 
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Toronto has had the longer list since the beginning. None of the projects on it are new -- they're all deferred from prior years.
Does a list exist to the feds if it's not submitted?

Basically, Miller gambled, and lost badly. Then they went back and submitted the stuff they should have in the first place, but only because the feds were willing to cut them some slack.

In any case, I agree with what's been said before: It's a no-brainer to submit the Centre Island Airport tunnel application. It would be stupid not to. And while I think there are many plusses to having that tunnel, I wonder if the feds might want to approve it just to irritate Miller. ;)
 

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